FB Standard Wagon

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FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

And this is as far as this diagnosis can go..

I connected the tester to the pressure sensor port on oil inlet which feed the main oil gallery.

36psi at 2000 rpm on the drill.

The look any further from here it’s a matter of che k bearing clearances which should be fine unless they have worn on start up.
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Drew
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Brett027
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by Brett027 »

Hi Drew, Happy Xmas to you and the forum family.
I have been interested in your oil issue and have a few questions/ observations. First is, on Wilma with a fully rebuilt engine, including oil pump, the pressure never really got much above 30psi. The rocker gear was much like yours too, in that oil was there, but not like it is say on a red motor. I suspect oil mist is also used for valve gear lebrication. So, do you really have a problem there? Given the tiny size of the feeder pipe to the valve gear you can't expect much.
The main question I have is about the difference between feeding oil into the motor through the indicator fitting compared to feeding it back through the original in-block input. Would this not be restrictive to the potential flow? I have seen another external filter grey motor job where a hole was drilled though the block to pipe the oil back into the original block entry point. I assume he did that to get the original flow potential? Is that worth considering? Secondary question: How will you determine if flow is adequate? - pressure is easy but not an indicator of flow.

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ardiesse
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by ardiesse »

Drew,

36 psi is as good as the oil pressure gets, and that's downstream of the oil filter too. I'd expect maybe 2 or 3 psi drop across the filter, so your pump's most likely supplying around 40 psi.

Normal oil feed to the rockers is "only just welling out" of the holes. Number 1 exhaust is the coal-mine canary for checking oil feed to the rockers, so try this -
Set the engine to no.3 inlet valve fully open (which should be no. 1 at firing instant) and drive the oil pump. Oil should start to run out of the rockers within a few seconds of the gauge registering pressure, and after a little while you should see flow out of all 12 rockers.

The reason for setting the engine at this position is that oil is not fed continuously to the rockers, but only for maybe 30-45 degrees of camshaft rotation.

If you are still concerned about oil pressure, why not, for testing purposes, bypass the oil filter? (hoping your hoses have the same fittings on each end)

Edit: As always, it helps to read the previous posts.

50 psi is your "open-circuit" pressure, that is, with only internal pump leakage and the bypass valve consuming the pump's output. This gives me the impression that the bypass valve does not provide perfect regulation of pump pressure: the oil pressure will be higher when the bypass valve has to dump the pump's full flow, than when the bypass valve is only just open.

I still think your oil pump and associated components are working properly. And no, your bearings won't be worn either.

Rob
FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

[album][/album]
Brett027 wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:27 pm Hi Drew, Happy Xmas to you and the forum family.
I have been interested in your oil issue and have a few questions/ observations. First is, on Wilma with a fully rebuilt engine, including oil pump, the pressure never really got much above 30psi. The rocker gear was much like yours too, in that oil was there, but not like it is say on a red motor. I suspect oil mist is also used for valve gear lebrication. So, do you really have a problem there? Given the tiny size of the feeder pipe to the valve gear you can't expect much.
The main question I have is about the difference between feeding oil into the motor through the indicator fitting compared to feeding it back through the original in-block input. Would this not be restrictive to the potential flow? I have seen another external filter grey motor job where a hole was drilled though the block to pipe the oil back into the original block entry point. I assume he did that to get the original flow potential? Is that worth considering? Secondary question: How will you determine if flow is adequate? - pressure is easy but not an indicator of flow.

Sent from my SM-T865 using Tapatalk
Gday Brett, yes from what I can work out in regards to the top end… as long as oil is getting up there it’s basically as good as it gets.

In regards to bottom end I’ll answer you question best I can…

The oil pressure tester fitting doesn’t have oil flow through it, it’s the same as the factory oil pressure sensor but it’s connected to a guage.
I have it connected to a T piece so it checks the pressure as the oil flows past it.
Essentially the tester has no effect on flow.

However I understand your train of thought with all the fittings I have connected, and yes I was concerned also about flow but Harv has explained that it shouldn’t really make any difference.
But in saying that, I do not know and I have no way of testing the oil ‘FLOW’ rate aka ‘VOLUME’

I just need to trust that the oil pump is doing its job.

The book spec is 29psi at like 1200 or 1500 revs (can’t remember)
And no my motor does not meet that spec.

So to be honest I’m not happy with it at all.

As Harv said if my oil lines to the filter were restrictive the pressure would rise, which it is not.

Also in regards to oil entry point, the oil enters into the port where the factory oil sender is normally fitted. This is the same point where the factory oil pump supplies oil to the main gallery.

Essentially the oil route is exactly the same as factory except it goes via filter.

I’ll get to the bottom of it yet!!!
Drew
FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

ardiesse wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:03 pm Drew,

36 psi is as good as the oil pressure gets, and that's downstream of the oil filter too. I'd expect maybe 2 or 3 psi drop across the filter, so your pump's most likely supplying around 40 psi.

Normal oil feed to the rockers is "only just welling out" of the holes. Number 1 exhaust is the coal-mine canary for checking oil feed to the rockers, so try this -
Set the engine to no.3 inlet valve fully open (which should be no. 1 at firing instant) and drive the oil pump. Oil should start to run out of the rockers within a few seconds of the gauge registering pressure, and after a little while you should see flow out of all 12 rockers.

The reason for setting the engine at this position is that oil is not fed continuously to the rockers, but only for maybe 30-45 degrees of camshaft rotation.

If you are still concerned about oil pressure, why not, for testing purposes, bypass the oil filter? (hoping your hoses have the same fittings on each end)

Edit: As always, it helps to read the previous posts.

50 psi is your "open-circuit" pressure, that is, with only internal pump leakage and the bypass valve consuming the pump's output. This gives me the impression that the bypass valve does not provide perfect regulation of pump pressure: the oil pressure will be higher when the bypass valve has to dump the pump's full flow, than when the bypass valve is only just open.

I still think your oil pump and associated components are working properly. And no, your bearings won't be worn either.

Rob
Gday Rob.

The 36psi was achieved using the drill at 2000rpm
But when the motor is running at 2000rpm I’m only getting about 24 psi.

After the above diagnosis this afternoon I dumped the 15/40 running in oil and went and bought some Penrite SAE30 20/60 Mineral Full Zinc and a new filter.

I was really hoping that I’d see a sharp rise in PSI but no I did not.

At idle it around 15 psi
When raved up to 3000 the pressure sharply rises up to 30psi but when holding revs at 3000 the pressure drops to 24.

It’s like the bottom end is not holding pressure.

I know the pump has capacity up to 50psi
The filter and associated pipe work also holds up to 50psi
But with the motor running the pressure drops to way below what I consider acceptable for a motor that I want to give a heap of right foot to on a regular basis.

Yes I will bypass the filter and check the pressure again but I know it will yield the same result of about 24 psi constant.

I’d rather pull the motor out and see what’s going on than drive it like that.
Drew
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Brett027
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by Brett027 »

I think what Harv is saying about flow is probably the issue here. The volume of fluid moved by the pump will stay the same (unless the pump elements are leaking past each other- which is unlikely in your rebuilt pump). So unless there is a major and rare clearance issue in your engine ( also unlikely after rebuild and your fastidiousness with verniers) my guess is that your pipework from the filter is restricting the flow and the relief valve is letting go to allow the pump to keep turning without jamming up. If you are going to continue with using the filter direct from the pump outlet I think the probable solution you have is to make up an original internal diameter pipe from the filter back through the block and back into the original oil entry point in the block. The problem with a relief valve dumping into the sump is you can't measure what flow is coming out of it.
Alternatively and respectfully, ditch the lot and change the oil regularly and clean up the pump mesh every blue moon

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EK283
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by EK283 »

I have been through this as well more so with a red motors and now Chev.

Rule of thumb, old school is 7 PSI every thousand rpm so for example 14psi @ 2000 rpm. I know you guys will laugh at that but thats what i aim for in my chev engines.
The red motors that i have cooked bearings on all used high volume oil pumps and would pump up so much oil to the top of the engine and run dry in the sump ! The rememdy was to pack the pushrods with rifle cleaners to try and stop the flow, eventually we used Fraud lifters with different height oil holes to limit the flow and I had to drain the oil from the rocker cover back to the sump. All this because of high volume.

The chev has the same issues but i have controlled it with a larger volume oil pan. All this is on high revving large clearance engines.

If you have good bearing to crank and rod clearances the less oil pressure and volume you need.
I have now started using standard volume and pressure pumps and have no failures yet touch wood !!

At the end of the day if it is bothering you then check and redo, its the only time you will feel nice without apprehension, Iv'e been there and done that a lot !!!

Regards Greg
So many cars so little time!
FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

Brett027 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:22 am I think what Harv is saying about flow is probably the issue here. The volume of fluid moved by the pump will stay the same (unless the pump elements are leaking past each other- which is unlikely in your rebuilt pump). So unless there is a major and rare clearance issue in your engine ( also unlikely after rebuild and your fastidiousness with verniers) my guess is that your pipework from the filter is restricting the flow and the relief valve is letting go to allow the pump to keep turning without jamming up. If you are going to continue with using the filter direct from the pump outlet I think the probable solution you have is to make up an original internal diameter pipe from the filter back through the block and back into the original oil entry point in the block. The problem with a relief valve dumping into the sump is you can't measure what flow is coming out of it.
Alternatively and respectfully, ditch the lot and change the oil regularly and clean up the pump mesh every blue moonImage

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Gday Brett.
Yes I think flow may my issue so I did what you suggested and bypast the filter so it’s just recirculating as per standard other than my hose looping it back into the block.
Pressure is a touch better.
I’m just going to leave it like this until I get more time to look at it as i will continue with moving to get it on the road.
Drew
FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

EK283 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:10 am I have been through this as well more so with a red motors and now Chev.

Rule of thumb, old school is 7 PSI every thousand rpm so for example 14psi @ 2000 rpm. I know you guys will laugh at that but thats what i aim for in my chev engines.
The red motors that i have cooked bearings on all used high volume oil pumps and would pump up so much oil to the top of the engine and run dry in the sump ! The rememdy was to pack the pushrods with rifle cleaners to try and stop the flow, eventually we used Fraud lifters with different height oil holes to limit the flow and I had to drain the oil from the rocker cover back to the sump. All this because of high volume.

The chev has the same issues but i have controlled it with a larger volume oil pan. All this is on high revving large clearance engines.

If you have good bearing to crank and rod clearances the less oil pressure and volume you need.
I have now started using standard volume and pressure pumps and have no failures yet touch wood !!

At the end of the day if it is bothering you then check and redo, its the only time you will feel nice without apprehension, Iv'e been there and done that a lot !!!

Regards Greg
Hi Greg thanks for the reply.

I checked my book and the rod and main clearances are .0035” so they are on the max clearance which will create a touch less pressure.
However I remember now that the idiot that fitted my cam bearings linished one of the cam journals down and one of the journals has .006 clearance which is huge.
This will explain the loss I’m looking for also.
It’s fine for now but I’ll pull the donk one day and get the cam journals ground .010 and fit new bearings.
All in all it’s fine for now.
I will run 40/70 oil to compensate for this.
Drew
FbSTDwagon
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FbSTDwagon »

But she is a goer!
Got it off the stands and drive it out of the shed.
Spent all arvo driving up and down the driveway sitting on a milk crate.
She is off the auto sparky this week to get wired up and I’ll finish her off on its return.
Not long now
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Errol62
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by Errol62 »

Ripper mate. Looks like you’ve been driving the doors off it. Thread just hit 1000 posts……


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Harv
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by Harv »

Great news.

Cheers,
Harv
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Blacky
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by Blacky »

nice work Drew, always a good feeling the first time they run under their own steam ...... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :clap:
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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FireKraka
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by FireKraka »

Congratulations Drew, always a great feeling when you get them under their own steam.
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In the Shed
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Re: FB Standard Wagon

Post by In the Shed »

Nice work Drew 👍
A day in the shed beats a day at work!
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