Hi
i have to change the rear main seal in the sedan
does any one know if the 186 is a rubber seal or the rope type
it is a HK 186 as far as i can work out going by engine number
but i got the motor out of a HR prem any way rubber seal can do from
going in through the sump without taking the motor out but the rope type
you cant motor has to come out much bigger job
any info is appeciated Jay
Hi Jay,
you are going to get a big response to this one..... hopefully...
I went through this saga before the Vic club went to Tassie.... just a few years back.
I was in two minds as to whether to replace the "rope" one installed by GEM engines (Sydney) with a neoprene one.
The rope one is a bit tricky to get in, but if done correctly will probably outlast a neoprene one - but, as mentioned - is a bit tricky to get in.
Most first timers who try to do this make the mistake of fitting them dry and pounding the living daylights out of them to get them in. I have heard reports of people actually being unable to fit the rear cap due to the seal preventing it.
I was told to soak it in engine oil overnight, then work it into the grooves until it was just proud (1/32nd") then fit the rear cap and progressively torque it down whilst turning the crank.
If you get it right, you should have no further trouble for as long as you have the engine fitted to the vehicle. You will find, however that the crank will be hard to turn for some time.... until the rope "sits"....
One word of warning, if you let your motor stand for extended periods (months), don't be surprised if you get a bit of a weep for a while (week or so) when finally getting it going again..... the rope (wick) may temporarily dry out......
All this is what I have been told, not necessarily what others may post up beyond here........
Now, the easy/useless one........ neoprene.
I went to the 'nth degree to track one down for a red motor..... nowhere to be found.... until I stumbled onto a back yarder who had one in his "drawer" .... original packaging etc.... then in came another... from a bearing place in Mitcham, Vic.... I had two and wouldn't part with them for any cost......
The sad news is, I believe - that the rear neoprene seal from a 308 Holden is identical (I cannot verify this..... please Dr. Terry......?)
If you take a very close look at your crank - scrutinise the mating surface of where the neoprene seal will sit... if it is scored - you will need to fit the "rope" one...
If it has been machined leaving knurling - you will need the rope one.... if you go to any supplier of red motor seals... they will only find the "rope" one on their books....
I studied my crank using a pair of very strong reading glasses AND a magnifying glass.... I found absolutely no signs of any scoring/marking and decided to go ahead with the neoprene fit.... the crank has to be lifted from the crankcase webbing (read later) to get the upper one in.
We ran the entire trip to Tas and not a leak (checked every night).... on getting back to Vic.. first night in the garage at home and it has leaked ever since.....not a lot - but it drives me crazy..... it won't leak whilst the engine is running, won't leak if left for long periods.... but WILL leak for about five/six drops when the engine is turned off......aaaarrrrrghhhh!
Now the better bit.... I have since purchase a "Sneaky Pete"... it's a tool with which you can remove the upper seal without dropping the crank.
The lower seal, of course - can be replaced with the rear cap removed... but the upper one sits above the crank.
I have the sneaky pete, and a replacement neoprene seal... but, like many things on my old bus.... haven't done it yet......
I also note that it may very well not be the rear seal which is leaking, it may - fingers crossed - be the rear sump seal..... but I'm pretty much convinced "sneaky pete" is going to get a run around my crank.......
I'm looking forward to what others may be able to enlighten you with here, Jay......
Ok Rosco where did you get the sneaky pete from
and when you did the seal last time did you have the motor out
or was it still in the car
and have you got any pics of the neo seal and the wick seal
i went to repco the other day and they had both in stock i want to
make sure there the right one's .Thanks Jay
Hi Jay,
ok.... sorry for the delay - got lots of stuff going on with our retirement/caravan at present......
Ummm..... yes, my motor was out - on and engine stand - every conceivable bit was removed... to find that rattle I have..... and hence, the crank was out when I decided to replace the wick/rope seal with a neoprene one. In hindsight, I should have left the blasted thing in there..... it was fine... but opportunity was begging....
Sneaky Pete came from Bursons - the american engineering company - can't put my hands on the log book at present.... but you'll find Bursons have them...
My suspicion would be that you have a wick/rope seal...... you won't know until you pull that rear main .. or at the very least get the sump off and take a peek in from the side...
Sneaky Pete will not work with a rope/wick seal.... they have to be driven in (it's quite an effort to get them to fit).
Sneaky Pete will let you fit a replacement neoprene one.... but only if you can remove a neoprene one... if you have a rope/wick seal in there... the crank has to come out...or at least dropped far enough to pull it out and clean up the recess...
Ummmm - I'm a bit surprised to learn that you can get a neoprene one.... perhaps someone did their homework and realised that the 308 was the same seal..... (I'm not sure about this, J).....
Yes, have lots of pix.... bore you to death with what I took - but, like the log book..... it's somewhere in the other study.... under all the stuff for the caravan... hope we've got enough room to get into the van when this lot gets "placed"......
I'll try and chase those pix up in the next couple of days...
The neoprene seal looks like two halves of the inner part of a wheel bearing seal.... one part has two extension legs .. one each side of what goes around the crank - the other one is just a half seal.
The rope/wick one is basically a couple of lengths of square fibrous cord.... it must be shaped and pushed into the recess.....then the crank has to be fitted so that it "sits" inside the cord. If you get it right - you should not have any further trouble.....
My neoprene one may have been "nicked" at some time whilst running around - the seal part of it is a very thin "edge" (like a wheel bearing seal).. once that's damaged, oil will run out.....
Neither of these are under oil pump pressure, Jay.... they just stop the splash and commotion of the oil in the sump from running out through the revolving crank.....
Hope that sort of explains what they do.....and how to identify them ?
I was hoping someone else on the forum would jump on this for you..... surely, I'm not the only one who has had to travel down this procedure......?
frats,
Rosco
ps, Jay, if you can be a bit patient with me - I'll throw up quite a few of the guts of my engine .... some of them should give you an idea of what both seals look like....
post script..... just found my "spare" neoprene seal and Sneaky Pete
Fla-Seal oil seal - pt # 1-15429 (S337)
Sneaky Pete seal tool 27000 - made by Lisle Corporation - Clarinda, Iowa 51632. Bar code 0 83045 27000 3
Thanks mate when ever you get time is fine i know how it is
ive got 4 kids under 10 and i work from home and the wife works fulltime
hence the fb wagon is not getting much love at the moment
and the sedan needs some maintence hard to find time though
Guys,
I haven't replaced a red motor seal for yonks now, (woke up and play with chevs) but if my memory serves me correctly the only way to replace a rear main is to have the crank out simple as that! The time and effort you need to get the sump off and lower the crank whilst under the car is huge (been there done that) and it is just as easy to pull the motor out and do it properly.
My memory of the rope seal is horrid I could never get them to stop leaking and I tried many of them especially in the grey engines. The neoprene seals work the best in my opinion they are far easier to put in. The crank needs to be out or at least pulled away from the block enough for you to remove and replace the seal. Once in a light smear of silastic in the ends (two piece seal) and they would not leak.
Jay as Rosco has said the pan gasket could also be the culprit but again you need to pull the motor out for proper diagnosis, unfortunately there is no "easy way".
Jay
