Ok understand that bolting early rim to later drum may or will lead to distortion and failure of the rim centre which is catastrophic to say the least. But would this cause the symptom described by Rosco where the wheel locks up? If so good protection for the hapless brace swinger.
I have to admit I have not tried to run early rims on the EJ on setup. I did run 14x6 rims which seemed to work until one of the centres developed a crack. This may have been on the HR disc hubs rather than the EH drums.
What Craig says makes sense from the parts back compatibility outlook that seems to be generally the case with the FE - HZ cars.
So IF you can run later drums on your FE-EK you need to run EJ on rims. Any pointers on how to distinguish between the earlier rims?
Photo below shows FB with pointed raised section between nuts.
The one below is HR disc and has rounded raised section.
These ROH chromies are different altogether. Torana?
I'm thinking the scallop between the nuts is the key but the round ones I have looked at so far all have the flanges shaved to clear disc calipers if you know what I mean. I will pop a few wheels off and see if I can find an EJ Drum example.
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Well buzzed of a few wheels and all the ones with round ended scallops between the nuts have the relieved flanges which I believe to be HR disc rims.
I believe there is a difference between EJ-EH/HD-HR non disc and HD-HR disc rims but seems a hell of a coincidence that I have inherited several of the suspected HR disc animals with an FB an EK and a pile of EK parts.
So the difference between these two sorts of rims is apparent. What is not is the difference between FE EK rims EJ on drum rims and HD HR disc rims.
Fascinating stuff?
Cheers
Clay
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Cheers Tim
I think I've got it. HD HR drum rims seem to be missing from my collection but I assume they are similar to the disc rims only with the flange protrusions.
Also worth noting here that the HR non commercial shoes and wheel cylinders fit EJ EH rear backing plates and drums allowing the smaller bore disc compatible rear cylinders to be used with specific shoes.
Cheers
Clay
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SunnyTim wrote:As Dr Terry states FE to EH rims are the same
HD-HR non disc are different to HD-HR Disc
All 3 rims will fit on an FE-EH
As Craig has mentioned, although HD-HR drums will fit FB-EK, make sure you fit HD-HR rims..
Tim
Tim can I fit HD-HR drums onto my standard FB brake shoe/wheel cylinder combo, and run 14 inch HT rims
Cheers Rob
SunnyTim wrote:As Dr Terry states FE to EH rims are the same
HD-HR non disc are different to HD-HR Disc
All 3 rims will fit on an FE-EH
As Craig has mentioned, although HD-HR drums will fit FB-EK, make sure you fit HD-HR rims..
Tim
HD-HR drums wont fit FB-EK. HD HR rims will fit over FB-EK Drums.
HD-HR disc rims have a slightly different offset for caliper clearance. These rims from memory are identified by a small approx. 1 x 3/16" hole in the mounting face. I am dubious though about FE-EK rims fitting EJ-EH. I cant remember if they were flat faced drum or not.
The EJ EHdrums are flat faced per the picture in my earlier post.
Measured a few rims today. All my HR disc are 86mm backspace. Some have the hole described by Craig. Some have the groove just inside the bead also described above. All fit my HR disc front end.
All the older style are 90mm. Not much difference but consistent. By back spacing I mean drum hub face to inner rim edge. These older rims are pretty well identical. Most are definitely FB EK and they all fit the flat faced EJ EH drums.
Before you say get a life I also took the bride car shopping and brought home an Audi A1 TSFI thingy with 120km on the clock. Better than the fiat Alfa Citroen Peugeot things she was in to.
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At the risk of muddying the waters, there are a few furphies which need to be disposed of -
Wheel rims first: The older style (FE-EH) rims are interchangeable, with minor differences in design, mainly diameter and placement of the hole for the valve stem. These differences were sorted out by mid-FC, and then the design stayed fixed. At some point (maybe late EK/early EJ), the rivets attaching the centre to the rim gave way to welds.
Sorry, there ain't no such thing as a "drum" HD/HR rim. All HDs and HRs got the same rims, drums and discs alike.
Drums: EJ/EH brakes were designed to fit inside the existing (at the time) wheel rims. HD/HR drums have a different offset from the EJ/EH drums, although outwardly they look very similar. The outer rim of the drum "sticks out" further towards the outside of the vehicle in HD/HR than in EJ/EH. The HD/HR wheels were designed with this in mind. The hubcap mounting plane on the HD/HR rims is offset further toward the outside of the vehicle than on the earlier models. This is why you can only use HD/HR wheels with HD/HR brakes, and HD/HR wheels will also fit FE-EH. For the same reason, you can't successfully fit an HD/HR/Torana/Gemini/whatever hubcap to the front wheels of an FE-EH with standard wheels. The centre of the hubcap will contact the hub's grease cap before it goes over the mounting lugs of the early series wheels.
Wheels: This is where things get confusing. Aftermarket "HD/HR" wheel centres, in the area where the wheel nut holes are, are very similar to Torana rims (the chrome wheel rim earlier in this thread being an example), and should in fact be used with HT-onwards wheel nuts. OEM HD/HR wheel centres look more like the FE-EH rims, except that the raised features between the wheel nut holes are a lot more pronounced. And there's a small hole in one of the raised indentations.
Errol: Do you reckon that you could measure the inside depth of an FB/EK drum and an EJ/EH drum (top edge of drum to seating plane of flange) for me?
Rob have you heard of Ajax rims? They were, if not still are rim manufacturers for EOM. In my dealings with them some years ago I was told that they manufactured rims for Holden. In that I was trying to purchase new HR Disc rims, and they could only sell me HR drum rims as disc rims were no longer being manufactured. I still have those rims, and they don't fit over HR Disc calipers. As I had a recent blowout on one of those rims I'll check to see if there is any stampings to post up.
No, I'll admit I haven't heard of Ajax rims. ROH I remember, and Mullins Wheels I also remember (bought a set of 14x6 steel wheels to suit HT in '86).
It may be that the wheel centre profile for aftermarket 13" early Holden stud pattern wheels is different enough from that of original Holden HD/HR wheels that, even though they're ok on drum-braked HDs and HRs, they foul on the HR calipers.
Would you be able to put an Ajax rim side-by-side with an original HR rim and compare the differences between the two?
No, I'll admit I haven't heard of Ajax rims. ROH I remember, and Mullins Wheels I also remember (bought a set of 14x6 steel wheels to suit HT in '86).
It may be that the wheel centre profile for aftermarket 13" early Holden stud pattern wheels is different enough from that of original Holden HD/HR wheels that, even though they're ok on drum-braked HDs and HRs, they foul on the HR calipers.
Would you be able to put an Ajax rim side-by-side with an original HR rim and compare the differences between the two?
Rob
No sorry Rob, I sold off all my HD/HR stuff a few years ago vowing never to go back...........time will tell lol. All I have left are these rims which are used on my boat trailer and teardrop camper.
The markings appear to be the Ajax company symbol as well as ROH Aust.
Bingo! You've just confirmed that EJ/EH drums will work with FB/EK brakes. (The question's just been asked on the FE/FC forum).
Thanks for measuring them up.
Bingo! You've just confirmed that EJ/EH drums will work with FB/EK brakes. (The question's just been asked on the FE/FC forum).
Thanks for measuring them up.
Rob
But they wont work with standard FB/EK rims or am I thinking HD/HR drums????
I stand to be corrected however I'm pretty confident in this now:
EJ EH drums will fit FB EK brakes. I don't believe they'll fit FE FC.
EJ EH drums will work with FE EH rims, although I'm not sure they will go on FE FC backing plates. EJ EH rims are essentially the same as FE EK.
HD HR rims will work with FE EH drums, both types.
The later HKTG, torana and after market rims will fit FE through HR. HT on require the later wheel nuts.
FE EH rims won't work on HD HR drums or discs for that matter.
HD HR drums require the HD HR backing plate to fit EJ EH and won't fit FE EH without a change to EJ HR LC UC rear axle and steering knuckles.
FE FC drums won't fit FB EK, FB EK won't fit EJ EH and EJ EH won't fit HD HR.
I think that covers it.
Should this be a stickie?
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