HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

[rosco]

Ok folk - I hate Photobucket - did I ever mention this?... grrrrr

Roger H has just replied to me about reconditioning my steering box. He has given me permission to post pix of his work - I believe many here would like to see them...

















Further to this, he tells me that there is a difference in the length of the lower control arms between HD and HR - I have the HD front end.... the control arms were lengthened 1/4" in the HR giving it a 1/2" wider track - to improve trackiing and cornering...

This may be part/parcel of why I have such a crappy steering lock - I suspect that the good book for HD gave the turning circle... be good to look at the comparison with HR...

Guess who is now on the lookout for a good set of HR lower control arms.... anyone point me in the right direction to getting some?... needless to say, I'll be taking a good look at the pivot pin bush holes before taking any....

Ok, will post up more as it comes to hand.

frats,
Rosco

[Blacky]

If you have the shorter lower control arms will using HR ones cause any interference with your front tyre to guard clearance ??? I would assume the upper control arms are also shorter if the lowers are ??? You may have camber issues if only the lower arms are replaced with the HR ones ???

That steering box sure does look purty - I need one for my ute

[rosco]

Blacky, as best I understand it - only the lower arms were lengthened. I was always of the opinion that the uppers were shorter - and could never find any difference when measuring mine against HR and what I have... I may have been sent on the wrong lead in the upper ones - all the time, should have been looking at the lower ones.

As for camber - and tyres rubbing - no, it will actually help in my case by having them 1/4" longer. My tyres would scrub on the tie rod ends without the use of XU-1 spacers (two being the maximum allowed). I have them fitted (see pix) to clear the tie rod ends... with HR lower control arms - I'd be able to remove them and make my car legal in some states...

To compensate for the longer control arms - shims of 1/4" or thereabouts would need to be fitted/removed from the upper arm/tower mount.
I had longer bolts fitted by "Computalign" back in '83...as he told me I'd need them..... but, by the pix - you can clearly see that there is plenty of thread left - he may have been scratching his head a bit as to why my "HR" front end did not need the full pack of shims - as was the normal case of fitting one of these HR front ends to an early model.... guess we now know why.

Yes, Roger appears to have done a very nice job of his reconditioning... I am chomping at the bit to having those needle rollers on the sector shaft - has to be a huge improvement over the bushes... and wear/tear would be negligible on them... just keep the big tyres pumped up to 40 psi or more, he tells me.

How did you go with your replacement rear wheel bearings? - I'm keen to learn what you fitted.... manufacturer/part number etc. etc.

frats,
Rosco

[Blacky]

Still waiting for them Rosco went to pick them up today as I had ordered them on Monday and they still aren't here .......

[Errol62]

I’m after advice on the HD HR drag link assembly I’m firing to my FB Ute, retaining the stock king pin suspension and steering arms. Rather than start a new post thought I’d revive this one.

The original steering linkage was in a bad way and I envisaged the later setup being a fuss free improvement.

I bought replacement inner and outer tie rod ends on eBay and fitted to a drag link given to me by mate gledge. Everything is nize’an’tite and installed to specifications.

Inner tie rod touches the drag link to pitman arm ball joint outer, preventing full right lock. On left lock the left inner tie rod end contacts the idler atm to draglink brass bush. I’m getting two turns lock to lock, when I should be getting more like 3 3/4 turns.

When I fitted the inner tie rod ends I found that the tapers were a bit small for the drag link. It was necessary for me to instal a couple of washers under the castellated nuts to be able to pull the tapers in enough to seat firmly. This is where the alarm bells started to ring. I now wonder if I could fit some form of shim in the tapers which would push the tie rods away from the drag link by around 5mm. Otherwise I will have to change the inners for as pair with thicker taper shafts.

Anybody else have a take on this?





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[Craig Allardyce]

You are going lock to lock with the suspension arms hanging? i.e. no engine weight on the front end. Maybe try it with it on the ground and weighted. You are also going to have problems with the drag link hitting the sump on a grey (known issue with this set up with the grey fitted)

[Errol62]

Thanks for the reply Craig. Wheels hanging when first noted. Same with wheels on the ground. I will stick in the engine and see if it makes a difference. Engine is a 186 with EH sump. It did appear to clear previously however I have lowered the front mounts since so we shall see.


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[rosco]

Errol,
I have poor r/h lock with HD/HR front end and also ball joint steering linkage - I am unsure as to what has caused this issue for some 35 years since I fitted the red motor and HR front end.....
As posted above, I have had the steering box reconditioned by Roger H and am yet to centre the tie rod adjustment for straight ahead with the steering assembly centred...
You have now given me some more light on why I may have suffered reduced r/h lock - although I would suspect that I would have noted the pitman arm touching the linkage ball joint...

As for sump - I have an EH sump fitted and it most certainly fouls the ball joint steering linkages on r/h lock....
I damaged the sump many, many years ago and on one occasion when I had the engine out of the vehicle - I fabricated up an 1/8" steel lower sump and welded it in... this gave me a lot more clearance, but I had to make the sump lower and also lower the pick up to suit.

Roger H had a look at my work and gave me an alternative which would have been a lot simpler.... simply fit a HD/HR or HK/T/G one with pick-up.... it should clear the cross-member and is designed to sit inside the steering linkage - I am yet to look around for these and make measurements as to whether it will fit my vehicle. For now, I'm happy with my bullet-proof sump... but, logic suggests that the sump should sit between the crossmember and steering linkage assembly - for aesthetics...

See if I can find some pix of my sump...... nup - photobucket has vetted pix I added way back then.... there has to be a better option to post pix, surely - anyone know how to insert them without using that monster of a utility?

frats,
Rosco

[rosco]

rear rhs suspension 001 mail.jpg (96.9 KiB) Viewed 5333 times

Ok folk, just had a fiddle - hope this works.
Pic is not related to thread - but, I simply went to the bottom of the "reply" and clicked on "attachments"... clicked "add file" then selected the file from documents in this computer and then clicked "place inline"....
Hope it worked.....
If it did - goodbye Photobucket...
frats,
Rosco

[rosco]

Yippee!....
Just in case it was a fluke - here's another attempt.
I'll slip out into the garage today, Errol and fire off a couple of how the drag link sits in my old bus... along with a "non photobucket" pic of the sump....

Head Office '73 001 mail.jpg (109.42 KiB) Viewed 5333 times

Take a peek at "modern" cars in April, 1973 (after getting my driver's license) at the Victorian Railways Admin office carpark, cnr Spencer and Flinders St's - the building is now a motel... apologies for digressing... my EK pix are now located on a portable hard drive, not in reach...

frats,
Rosco

[Errol62]

Thanks Rosco,
Don’t think the later sump will fit but I have wondered. I had the same issue in my old sedan early on. Right hand lock. But managed to address it by playing around with the engine mounts as I recall.

It is possible your issue is caused by the same situation I have where the inner tie rod fouls on the draglink bush and ball joint (not the actual pitman or idler arm).

Cheers
Clay


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[Craig Allardyce]

You are going lock to lock with the suspension arms hanging? i.e. no engine weight on the front end. Maybe try it with it on the ground and weighted. You are also going to have problems with the drag link hitting the sump on a grey (known issue with this set up with the grey fitted)

Other issue might be you have is the difference in maximum steering angle between the two models and maybe a difference in steering arm length. Are the king pin steering arms shorter than HR?HD? What's the maximum inside wheel steering angle compared to HD/HR? I'd be checking the specs between the models. Also track difference with the different length control arms on HR might be an issue. Good luck.

[rosco]

Ok Clay - as promised pix.... direct from this machine.
First up, r/h tie rod location at full r/h lock - the steering arm is hitting the stop on the lower control arm - can't ask for more than that.
Also, note that the vehicle is up on blocks at present... suspension is fully extended.

001 draglink rh lock mail.jpg (96.86 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

002 steering arm rh lock mail.jpg (91.71 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

Next up, we have the location of the draglink in front of the modified sump. First pic is full r/h lock, second is full left lock and final pic is with the wheel centred...

003 sump rh lock mail.jpg (96.02 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

004 sump lh lock mail.jpg (92.73 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

005 sump central mail.jpg (100.07 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

frats,
Rosco

[Errol62]

Thanks Rosco
From the first pic I can see that your inner tie rod clears under the end of the drag link. Mine seems higher up. I was sus about these bits I got off eBay. Price was too good to be true.

I think next step may be to remove the whole assembly. Easier done now with engine and guards out the way. Seems to me adding the weight of the engine will not improve clearance. However I am easily sidetracked, and removal may not happen for a while.


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[rosco]

Yes, Clay - I had a think about mine and came to the realisation that it is a HR front end with HR drag link assembly - it simply should all work..... (well, actually it is HD - but for all intents and purposes - the arrangement is the same). The HR drag link is a lot thicker than HD... Roger H told me this.... that might have something to do with why you are having issues as well.... but, I really don't know.

As Craig states, there may be something which is of a different measurement between EK king pin front end and the HR... steering arms, location, throw or position, in relation to where the HR assembly bolts up to. They both bolt up to the subframe - pitman arm at one end, idler arm at the other... with mine, these would be the same as yours.. so, it should work as far as mounting is concerned. There has to be something which is causing that drag link ball joint to draw up onto the tie rod.....
As stated, mine is up on blocks and the suspension is fully extended - so, yours should not be fouling either...
The assembly can only go in one way - I don't believe it possible to have it reversed.
further, I don't believe any adjustment of the tie-rod ends is going to make a great deal of difference - assuming you have the wheels facing straight ahead with the steering box centred (Roger H punched the end of my shaft at the steering wheel end to indicate centre - told me that I should demand any wheel alignment be done with the shaft in this position).
Further, I would assume that you have almost equal thread lengths on both tie rod ends....

Is it possible to position the original tube drag link assembly parallel to the HR one and see where the difference is? lock to lock.

frats,
Rosco