rough idle

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rough idle

Postby artyfartymarty » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:48 pm

I have a red 173 with trimatic that runs great when warm. when cold its a pig. but regardless of whether its warm or cold it idles like crap at the lights, but only in gear. :?:

when idling in gear it rocks the car from side to side like its a 350 with a very lumpy cam 8) , put it in neutral or just touch the acclerator and its as smooth as a jap 4. is it timing, idle speed, or fuel/air mix ratio?

It also pings at full throttle at revs, or it may be just valve bounce due to old valve springs...don't know. could it be too advanced or too retarded? :lol: :lol: :lol:
or could it be advancing mechanism on the dizzy.....and dont tell me the problem is that its an FB and i should replace it with an EK or that i should repalce it with a grey! :evil:
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Re: rough idle

Postby thropzed » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:02 pm

and dont tell me the problem is that its an FB and i should replace it with an EK or that i should repalce it with a grey! :evil:[/quote]

I think you answered all possible problems
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Postby (AUST)Mod » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:42 pm

Raise the idle mate. Just make sure you don't turn the air fuel mix ratio screw as you could bugger up your fuel economy. I recently turned my idle right down for the lumpy 350 chev feel and it was a pig in gear at the lights. I think by raising your idle, you will fix all of your problems. :)

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Re: rough idle

Postby minifb » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:45 pm

thropzed wrote:and dont tell me the problem is that its an FB and i should replace it with an EK or that i should repalce it with a grey! :evil:


I think you answered all possible problems
Cheers Theo Z...................[/quote]

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TRY RUNNING PREMIUM UNLEADED IN IT. ITS WORKED WONDERS WITH MINE...CHEERS MARK
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Postby thropzed » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:22 pm

Yes Mark,
The higher octane should clean out the fuel lines and carby. I have run my grey on premium and no cylinder lubricant for quite a few years now. My Red runs the same and only I suffer from anorexic wallet when I fill up. I don't know anything about auto's though.
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Postby FB MAD » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:21 pm

Always hard to diagnose an engine problem by the written word but first stop I'd be doing is tighten manifold to head bolts/nuts.

May not be all of your problem but may be part of it.It doesn't take too much time to tighten them up if they are loose.

If nuts/bolts are loose the engine can suck air at the manifold to head face when the engine is cold.As manifold/engine heats up after startup the clearances between the faces diminish due to expansion and the engine starts to suck less air and run better.

If manifold gasket is suspect, replace it and check for manifold face warpage which is common.

However, your engine rough idles in gear and smooth idles in neutral ?? :? :? Is it a standard motor or modified??

Haven't got my workshop manual on hand to quote exact specs from but........

Heres what I'd try in addition........

Warm engine up.

Check points gap and condition of points and check ignition timing and adjust if necessary.

Check idle speed in gear as per any red motor tune up specs for auto idle speed.I'd probably have it idle around 600 rpm in gear or thereabouts.

Once idle is set.Fiddle with the idle mixture screw.

Screw it out until the engine speed falters and then screw back in until it just starts to falter again, then screw back out approx 1/2 to 1 1/2 turns or thereabouts.

Could be a number of other causes or could be one simple cause but all the above would be a starting point for me if it was my motor.

High rev pinging could be due to incorrect engine tune including timing or poor quality fuel or combination of both.

Valve bounce symptoms are different to pinging symptoms.

Hope this bit of info and the advice of others helps.
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Postby artyfartymarty » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:17 am

thanks for all the replies and the pointers and guidance. I'll check the tightness of bolts before fiddling with any more settings.

Motor is 100% stock with a recond 1 year old stock carby and standard manifolds etc

I have cleaned the distributor and rotor and adjusted the timing before reading the messages and will pursue the pointers provided as adjusting the timing solved the pinging only (i brought it back to 6 degrees advanced from way beyond markings :shock: ) what should the timing set at for a stock 173 red?

Can anyone pls shed some light on how to adjust points gap.

Andrew, which is the idle speed screw and which is mixture (standard single carby) as i don't want to mess with the mix until the idle speed is sorted. I wish these things came labelled.
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Postby (AUST)Mod » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:36 am

Craig wrote: Andrew you have a red so I wouldn't race it :wink:

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Postby FB MAD » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Best investment you could make to help yourself and save money would be to buy a Gregorys Workshop Manual.All the answers to questions you are asking would be found in one of these manuals.

Still available new ( approx $60) , for FX through to HR the book number you would want is number 67 to cover FB/EK.Or you could try getting same from Evilbay or a swap meet in 2nd hand condition for around $20 or so.

If you want one to cover the 173 engine then book number 146 ( HQ/HJ 6 cyl ) would suffice.

In the absence of having one here's some helpers,

Ignition timing 173 ( HQ ) is 5 degrees BTDC ( before top dead centre )
If it has the original timing cover each graduation mark on the cover means two degrees advance.

Contact point gap is 0.019 to 0.025 thousandths of an inch.

To adjust point gap.

To make it simple I won't mention how to do it with a dwell meter.

Find a feeler guage with blade measuring 0.025 thou.Best to set at 0.025 than 0.019 as the gap will close as the points rubbing block wears.

Take dizzy cap off and rotor button.

Turn engine so that one of the six cam lobes on the dizzy shaft is at the high point in contact with the ignition points rubbing block and the ignition points are fully open.

Open points up with a screwdriver blade and check condition of contacts.If they are worn,dirty or have a high spot on them you should clean them up using a points file or better still, use a new set of points.

Insert feeler guage blade into points gap.If it is hard to insert the blade then the points gap needs to be widened and if the blade just slips in with a sloppy feel then the gap needs to be closed.

To adjust points gap undo adjusting screw slightly enough to be able to move points gap with a screwdriver.

The feeler guage blade should just drag very slightly between the contacts if the gap is right.

Retighten the adjusting screw and recheck points gap again as it can change when the screw is tightened.

Then adjust ignition timing.Don't do timing first then the points gap as points gap adjustment can change ignition timing.

Thats about it, sounds complicated but isn't really when someone actually shows you how to do it but it's bloody hard to describe how to do it simply using words.

Again, buy or lend a workshop manual.You can learn a whole lot from them for very little outlay.

Hope this helps, and doesn't sound too confusing :? :? :? :oops: :oops: :oops:
I can't think what to write here so this will do.
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Postby artyfartymarty » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:29 am

FBMad you are a wealth of knowlege, i'm glad people like you have the time and patience to sacrifice to help others by writing down what you know.

i've got the FX to HR manual but thats no help for a red motor and trimatic. Its a great thing that i have THE FORUM.

WOW, i thought it was 6 degrees advanced c's i assumed each timing mark meant 1 degree, if each mark means 2 degrees its still way out :shock: i'll adjust it again after the points are sorted.

:D :D :D
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Postby FB MAD » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:45 pm

Thanks fartymarty :wink: ,

Try to help out with mechanical probs etc as much as I can but I ain't no expert unfortunately.

Everyone's on this forum to achieve a common goal, that is, to help each other keep our FB and EK's on the road where they should be :D :D :D .

When it comes to body repairs,modifications, painting etc I've got as much expertise as a kid doing school work experience :oops: :oops: :oops: . Some of the blokes on here with their ability to do body work just simply blow me away with what they can do.

Its something I wish I'd learn't but never did.

Back to adjusting points,

Since you've already got the manual,

The page you'll need to look at in the Gregorys FX/HR manual is on page....... actually there's no bloody page no's :shock: :shock: :shock: ... hang on :? :? :? ..... look under "electrical system" section 7 "distributor" no 32 "to adjust contact point gap" ( EH,HD,HR) and it probably explains how to do it better than I did above.

If you thought each increment on the timing cover was 1 degree and you set it to what you thought was 6 degree advance you're probably sitting on around 12 degree's advance ATM which is a bit too much advance.

Reset it back to the 3rd increment which is about 6 degrees ( should be 5 degrees as per manual but 1 degree difference won't matter much ).Again, make sure you adjust points to correct gap BEFORE setting ignition timing , don't do it the other way around as the timing can change again once you fiddle with points gap.

There won't be a great deal of difference between the specs for EH/HD/HR red motors and the later 173 red that you have.Obviously trimatic isn't covered as they weren't fitted to those models but a later manual like HQ,Torana etc would cater for traumatic transmission.

I'll shutup now..... :oops: :oops: :oops:
I can't think what to write here so this will do.
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Postby artyfartymarty » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:08 pm

I had spent this morning fiddling withthe car.
points checked, replaced and set by the thickness of the bosch card box they came in, only for now, couldn't find the feeler guages...the contacts were non existant so adjustment by card was an improvement on the what was there.

timing reset to 5 degrees.

throttle body and carby cleaned and lubed and idle set.

It actually feels nice to drive again. kicks down as it should and idles much better. Thanks to all those that contributed to help me sort this. :D :D :D
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