Ok guys I need some help. I want to confirm I have hooked up the Booster properly in my EK. The pedal feels awfully hard and doesn't drop a little bit when the car is started like it should.
So what is the correct way to run the lines through the booster? I have a bad feeling we have done it wrong as their is no vacuum leaks and everything else seem ok?
We have it coming in from the top (diaphram end) and exiting straight out the oppisite end....
Help Brake Booster.....
Help Brake Booster.....
Speed and Style........... One day I'll get the speed bit.
)
Hi Brett, my Ek has a different setup but the peddal is quite firm aswell, I have a HQ master cyl and vh44 booster. The booster was reco when I got it!
Have you tryed the breaks on the road? That might not be such a good idea, forget i said that
Have you tryed the breaks on the road? That might not be such a good idea, forget i said that
[img]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/trevwood/WOOFTOsmall.jpg[/img]
Woofto Car Club Member No3
Woofto Car Club Member No3
Hey Devilrod,
Sounds like you have connected it right, but!
Don't be to hastey in discarding that booster, She proberly is fine and your not used to the operation of the VH40 - 44 series boosters.
1st off, make sure you have good vacuum supply and the one way valve is correct , the type that you can't blow through, but can suck.
Make sure you bleed all the air from the booster valve'
The booster does not have the soft feel you may be used to, like in current vehicles with the more common booster/master cylinder set up, It provides a more positive displacement of the pressure valve with vacuum assist within to supply a lighter pedal pressure feel,(yet not to be confused with softer dropping pedal) rather same firmness but faster response and braking pressure. Hope this helps you.
Regards John
Sounds like you have connected it right, but!
Don't be to hastey in discarding that booster, She proberly is fine and your not used to the operation of the VH40 - 44 series boosters.
1st off, make sure you have good vacuum supply and the one way valve is correct , the type that you can't blow through, but can suck.
Make sure you bleed all the air from the booster valve'
The booster does not have the soft feel you may be used to, like in current vehicles with the more common booster/master cylinder set up, It provides a more positive displacement of the pressure valve with vacuum assist within to supply a lighter pedal pressure feel,(yet not to be confused with softer dropping pedal) rather same firmness but faster response and braking pressure. Hope this helps you.
Regards John
Driven old Holdens all my life and the pedal definately doesn't feel right. They feel like unboosted disc/drum because I have never had to apply that much pressure to get my previous cars to stop.oldnek wrote:Hey Devilrod,
Sounds like you have connected it right, but!
Don't be to hastey in discarding that booster, She proberly is fine and your not used to the operation of the VH40 - 44 series boosters.
Even the drum/drum setup of my hotrod feels better!Is this in the booster? Or have I missed something vital in my setup?oldnek wrote:1st off, make sure you have good vacuum supply and the one way valve is correct , the type that you can't blow through, but can suck.
I'll double check I have all the air out of the system again and go over it top to bottom.oldnek wrote:Make sure you bleed all the air from the booster valve'
The booster does not have the soft feel you may be used to, like in current vehicles with the more common booster/master cylinder set up, It provides a more positive displacement of the pressure valve with vacuum assist within to supply a lighter pedal pressure feel,(yet not to be confused with softer dropping pedal) rather same firmness but faster response and braking pressure. Hope this helps you.
Regards John
Thanks John.
And Trev we were testing in the street
[/quote]Speed and Style........... One day I'll get the speed bit.
Hey Devilrod,;
Just makin sure you have the basic's right. Hate to waste time on unforseen areas that might be of concern. Odviously everything is O/K or you would'nt be seeking help.
I have done many, in that customers think they expect the norm in booster operation with a VH 40-44 but get dissapointed when it dos'nt live to there expection. Simple problems are they simply do not get enough vacuumm, (typically from big camshaft engines) the booster valve is simply the wrong type. the booster valve itself is seized and in-operational or they havn't bled the air properly.
So don't think I'm knocking you for your mechanical appitude but rather fill you in on what I have come across.
Regrads John
Just makin sure you have the basic's right. Hate to waste time on unforseen areas that might be of concern. Odviously everything is O/K or you would'nt be seeking help.
I have done many, in that customers think they expect the norm in booster operation with a VH 40-44 but get dissapointed when it dos'nt live to there expection. Simple problems are they simply do not get enough vacuumm, (typically from big camshaft engines) the booster valve is simply the wrong type. the booster valve itself is seized and in-operational or they havn't bled the air properly.
So don't think I'm knocking you for your mechanical appitude but rather fill you in on what I have come across.
Regrads John
Never thought you were knocking John. I can understand you're comments though as alot of people have different expectations of old cars and the lack of braking power is one they never understand...
Pedal seems to be coming good?! Still got to go over it all. Chrissy time is hectic...
Thanks for all your help guys...
Pedal seems to be coming good?! Still got to go over it all. Chrissy time is hectic...
Thanks for all your help guys...
Speed and Style........... One day I'll get the speed bit.
boster
Hi Devilrod,
I remember when I modified my old bus last century that I anticipated enjoying boosted brakes to that of current 1980's vehicles - alas, I didn't!
Originally I used the Girling booster which came with the HD disc ball joint front end and had Don Alford brakes of Ringwood fabricate all the lines for me to make connections with. After getting the whole show on the road, one of my biggest disappointments was the brakes.
I was almost alarmed and believed the booster inoperative. I thought I was braking un-assisted and after repetitively bleeding, checking and further consulting resorted to purchasing a new PBR VH 40-L from Patons Brakes in Flemington and found only a marginal improvement.
For twenty years I believed the booster or related fittings suspect until I joined the FB/EK car club of Vic in 2001 - it wasn't until then that I learned that my system had been in fact working correctly.
The pedal has always been hard and pedal travel is minimal. Pedal height on application is just below rest height - I had to modify the brake light switch to effect it operating when the brakes applied.
As to your pedal dropping when starting the engine, yes my pedal does drop but even when all vacuum is destroyed, there is but a very small drop in pedal height.
Happily however, I have always found my brakes to meet any situation - just have to stand on them a more than what you would expect from a booster/master-cyl system as opposed to our servo-assist system - I haven't had to use both feet as yet! I remember watching some Oz black and white serial in the '60's where the director probably thought it more dramatic to show a driver standing on the brake pedal with one foot on top of the other - maybe with cars using cable or lever brakes, but not hydraulic like ours!
If you are using a single line hydraulic system and have discs up front, I don't know if you are aware that the rear brake cylinders must be of a smaller bore - this is to effect the correct ratio to that of the disc calipers.
When I put my system together I had to use 9/16" bore rear cylinders. I was told that if I used the standard larger cylinders, the rear brakes would lock up. Unfortunately using the smaller rear cyls also meant using different brake shoes - they have different mating surfaces to meet the button head piston ends. If you have those shoes, for goodness sake don't throw them away when they are worn down. They are very hard to find. Make sure your brake-man re-lines them for you.
Although legal on my car due to its modification back in 1982/3, the single line system leaves a lot to be desired. I believe current requirement is for a split system incorporating a proportioning valve - vehicle systems engineer's will certainly want that before issuing a certificate. This then leads to an unknown area to which I have precious little knowledge. Others on this forum will undoubtedly give you information on what connections, components and shoes, cylinders etc are best suited to a dual-line system.
Hope this throws some light on your question?
frats,
Rosco
ps - the pix of the booster connections above are identical to mine using a single line system.
I remember when I modified my old bus last century that I anticipated enjoying boosted brakes to that of current 1980's vehicles - alas, I didn't!
Originally I used the Girling booster which came with the HD disc ball joint front end and had Don Alford brakes of Ringwood fabricate all the lines for me to make connections with. After getting the whole show on the road, one of my biggest disappointments was the brakes.
I was almost alarmed and believed the booster inoperative. I thought I was braking un-assisted and after repetitively bleeding, checking and further consulting resorted to purchasing a new PBR VH 40-L from Patons Brakes in Flemington and found only a marginal improvement.
For twenty years I believed the booster or related fittings suspect until I joined the FB/EK car club of Vic in 2001 - it wasn't until then that I learned that my system had been in fact working correctly.
The pedal has always been hard and pedal travel is minimal. Pedal height on application is just below rest height - I had to modify the brake light switch to effect it operating when the brakes applied.
As to your pedal dropping when starting the engine, yes my pedal does drop but even when all vacuum is destroyed, there is but a very small drop in pedal height.
Happily however, I have always found my brakes to meet any situation - just have to stand on them a more than what you would expect from a booster/master-cyl system as opposed to our servo-assist system - I haven't had to use both feet as yet! I remember watching some Oz black and white serial in the '60's where the director probably thought it more dramatic to show a driver standing on the brake pedal with one foot on top of the other - maybe with cars using cable or lever brakes, but not hydraulic like ours!
If you are using a single line hydraulic system and have discs up front, I don't know if you are aware that the rear brake cylinders must be of a smaller bore - this is to effect the correct ratio to that of the disc calipers.
When I put my system together I had to use 9/16" bore rear cylinders. I was told that if I used the standard larger cylinders, the rear brakes would lock up. Unfortunately using the smaller rear cyls also meant using different brake shoes - they have different mating surfaces to meet the button head piston ends. If you have those shoes, for goodness sake don't throw them away when they are worn down. They are very hard to find. Make sure your brake-man re-lines them for you.
Although legal on my car due to its modification back in 1982/3, the single line system leaves a lot to be desired. I believe current requirement is for a split system incorporating a proportioning valve - vehicle systems engineer's will certainly want that before issuing a certificate. This then leads to an unknown area to which I have precious little knowledge. Others on this forum will undoubtedly give you information on what connections, components and shoes, cylinders etc are best suited to a dual-line system.
Hope this throws some light on your question?
frats,
Rosco
ps - the pix of the booster connections above are identical to mine using a single line system.
Thanks for the reply Roscoe.
To answer a few questions, yes we fitted 9/16 slave cylinders out back. I actually had these before the front end. We modified a set of shoes by welding in the extra bit needed for the new slave cylinders (after consulting a brake shoe supplier). I used to have an FC with a worked motor and auto, the brakes never felt as bad as they are in the EK.
What I have found though is after adjusting the pedal, checking all bleeders etc, I left the car sit due to chrissy stuff but the master cylinder started to loose fluid. At first I couldn't see where, but after a day I found it. My master cylinder is shagged. I'll be kitting it out and hopefully that will solve it as everything else looks to be good. Still have to check the valve in the booster. What I have found annoying is the so called big chain autostores have bugger all stock! Not too mention the suppliers don't even list them anymore. 3 Stores and only one had them showing at the warehouse not the store. I ate this time of year all the really good places are closed....
To answer a few questions, yes we fitted 9/16 slave cylinders out back. I actually had these before the front end. We modified a set of shoes by welding in the extra bit needed for the new slave cylinders (after consulting a brake shoe supplier). I used to have an FC with a worked motor and auto, the brakes never felt as bad as they are in the EK.
What I have found though is after adjusting the pedal, checking all bleeders etc, I left the car sit due to chrissy stuff but the master cylinder started to loose fluid. At first I couldn't see where, but after a day I found it. My master cylinder is shagged. I'll be kitting it out and hopefully that will solve it as everything else looks to be good. Still have to check the valve in the booster. What I have found annoying is the so called big chain autostores have bugger all stock! Not too mention the suppliers don't even list them anymore. 3 Stores and only one had them showing at the warehouse not the store. I ate this time of year all the really good places are closed....
Speed and Style........... One day I'll get the speed bit.
spares
Hi again,
sorry for taking so long to get back, Christmas and stuff.........
You may wish to give Burson's a call - they carry many aftermarket spares for our old buses. We have another outlet here in the eastern subs called Moparts - give them a call also.
Burson's will honour your membership card to the FB/EK Holden car club and reward you with a discount.................
You may find that a new imported master cyl could be cheaper than kitting your old one. I would expect you are running an original? be careful if trying to fit the tin can cover to a more recent body - the threads are not interchangeable. The Plastic reservoir has a different thread to the tin can reservoir.
I will probably have my master cyl sleeved with stainless if it ever needs to be done.
I use silicone brake fluid in both the brake and clutch hydraulics - you don't want to go there - trust me.
If you have a totally (and I mean total) new system which has never had normal brake fluid in it - pipes included, you may wish to consider silicone.
I did back in '82 and haven't looked back. It is still available today but costs around $52 per litre! Harley Davidson use it for their system. It is marketed under the Shell brand.
The two big advantages with it are that it is inert. It does not damage paint and that it is not water hygroscopic. I have had it in my systems for over twenty years and there are absolutely no signs of any corrosion or pitting in the metal of the system. I have stripped the master cyl, rear wheel cyls and front calipers down and found them unmarked (the front calipers were not reco'd when fitted and have since had then done) - you must be warned that it cannot be used in anything which has made contact with ordinary brake fluid - the rubbers will turn to marshmallow like and I think you will appreciate the result........
You still must however flush the system periodically to remove water created by steam from the air when the fluid gets hot.
All hydraulic systems should be drained, flushed and re-filled periodically - I'm sure you would be aware of that...............?
I think your replacement/reno of the master cyl will certainly correct your issues.
Good luck, let us know how it goes..............
frats,
Rosco
sorry for taking so long to get back, Christmas and stuff.........
You may wish to give Burson's a call - they carry many aftermarket spares for our old buses. We have another outlet here in the eastern subs called Moparts - give them a call also.
Burson's will honour your membership card to the FB/EK Holden car club and reward you with a discount.................
You may find that a new imported master cyl could be cheaper than kitting your old one. I would expect you are running an original? be careful if trying to fit the tin can cover to a more recent body - the threads are not interchangeable. The Plastic reservoir has a different thread to the tin can reservoir.
I will probably have my master cyl sleeved with stainless if it ever needs to be done.
I use silicone brake fluid in both the brake and clutch hydraulics - you don't want to go there - trust me.
If you have a totally (and I mean total) new system which has never had normal brake fluid in it - pipes included, you may wish to consider silicone.
I did back in '82 and haven't looked back. It is still available today but costs around $52 per litre! Harley Davidson use it for their system. It is marketed under the Shell brand.
The two big advantages with it are that it is inert. It does not damage paint and that it is not water hygroscopic. I have had it in my systems for over twenty years and there are absolutely no signs of any corrosion or pitting in the metal of the system. I have stripped the master cyl, rear wheel cyls and front calipers down and found them unmarked (the front calipers were not reco'd when fitted and have since had then done) - you must be warned that it cannot be used in anything which has made contact with ordinary brake fluid - the rubbers will turn to marshmallow like and I think you will appreciate the result........
You still must however flush the system periodically to remove water created by steam from the air when the fluid gets hot.
All hydraulic systems should be drained, flushed and re-filled periodically - I'm sure you would be aware of that...............?
I think your replacement/reno of the master cyl will certainly correct your issues.
Good luck, let us know how it goes..............
frats,
Rosco
-
mrs ratbox
