Hello All

[camstuart52]

Thanks Devilrod,

Well the car will be outside and used regularly so i guess gloss..........now me being a total amatuer at all this (But wanting to learn) could someone please provide me with a bit of a how to (step by step) of what i need to do. I`m starting with the front drivers side guard, I figure a small section means small mistakes....i hope

I think a step by step for prep before paint would be great!!! Especially for the tech archive....!!! Just an idea!!! Also equipment and recommended brands maybe.....

So any panel beaters or experienced people, please help this complete but willing amatuer!!!

Hope I`m not being annoying!!!

[oldnek]

DR is 100% right in what he mentioned.
The only other way I have seen a flat finish is to add some flatning agent to gloss, which would turn out semi gloss, at least then you can cut and buff. I used this on my dash panel so it not shiney or cut the colour right back and hit it with flat 2k clear. With this method you won't get the chaulking of your finish. And also as Devilrod pointed out body prep has to be just as good as finish colour gloss.
John

[camstuart52]

Ok well all the advice i can get on the prep would be fantastic. I have checked around the site and found some, but nothing that explains in real great detail.........ie; step by step and what tools and substances are required. I`m completely new to this, but feel i have the ability to give it a go.........I`m walking blind at this stage.......sorry

[mrs ratbox]

don't want to argue or sound like i know it all
as for body prep i've found you don't need to be anywhere near as fussy my van looks pretty good in flat but there is no way i'de put shinny paint on it as is, i've never really kept a car long enough to give my thoughts on longevitty but i figure if you gotta give it a squirt over every year or so it beats the hell out of washing, pollishing, worrying about stone chips and scratches
to me it's a personal preference thing you either want flat paint with the no hassle that goes with it or shinny paint and the work and worries that go with it

[Devilrod]

Shiny paint isn't that much work, you only need to polish acrylic about every 2 months at a minimum. As far as washing, about the same , well we do have water restrictions here.....

But in the end it all comes down to how you want it and if you feel the body work isn't up to a shiny fininsh, just get flattener added to your colour. I don't think it will change the cost that greatly. Like Ratbox said its a personal preference, one we can't make for you. I've had both finishes and I know what is easier in the long run to maintain for me anyway.

As for tools needed, some basics you can't go without.... (sorry I don't have any pics to help with what is what)

Speed File and assorted paper ranging in grit levels from about 36 through to 400...

Sanding block and paper to suit from 36 through to 400, (bunnings have packs which are good value).

Compressor, spray gun, hoses, orbital sander if need be.

Primer and thinners to suit, mixing container if the gun is gravity feed.

Start with a 4 kg tin of bog and hardener, applicators.

Rust convertor.

Some hammers and dollies for dent removal.

Patience! Its a steep learning curve, but I'm sure the panel beaters on here will give you more help and ideas of what you need.

Thats a basic start anyway, someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

[rosco]

Hi CamStuart,
It's all out in front of you...............
I'm frightened to start a reply to this - don't think my machine has enough ink for the screen.......................

There are numerous ways, tricks and rights/wrongs here...................
Only one way you are going to "learn" is to find something small and "simple" to tackle, do plenty of research then jump and make a start..........

DR has given you the basic needs - the rest will come as you work your way through.

Start small and learn as you go - some things work for some people but others find them troublesome................. I can't tell you CS, what is going to be your best option without more of an understanding of where and what you are planning and the standard which you want to achieve.

Do you have any skills/experience.
Do you have access to workshop facilities.
Have you considered what safety gear you will need.
I suppose I could just fire questions off one after another..............
and get us no-where............

You are about to embark (and I hope you do) on a part of our passion which will last a lifetime or an hour - I can't tell you how this is going to turn out - but do a lot of reading and talking to suppliers.

They will of course want you to part with coupons - they have a vested interest, you understand.........

I know of many beginners who have "played" different suppliers against each other and unfortunately have had very disappointing results..........

I believe you must find one who is "user friendly" and stick with him.......... if you follow their instructions and something goes amiss........ at least they should be able to identify what you have or haven't done - if you use the advice or different products from more than one - especially if they contradict - you'll create a monster that no-one understands.
Just about everyone here has had to "start" somewhere.............
It isn't hard - if you understand what you are doing - and why you are doing it - they are all necessary steps to get to the top coats- skip one and it will come back to haunt you.
There are fundamentals you must learn - we need to establish what you already know..................
I would suggest keeping notes on what you do, take plenty of pix and don't rush anything. You can stuff up a preparation which has taken weeks by jumping in and hastily rushing something.
In these early stages you must lean preparation - but more importantly - why...........
We have numerous people on this site who will offer help and advice as you work through - we also have many who will watch with interest how you are progressing and may very well run in parallel with you........
At the end of the day, you are only going to learn this craft by attempting it..................

I was in your position about thirty something years ago - just pestered every supplier and tradie I could find - found one who made sense to me and seemed to speak in user-friendly terms.
I eventually got brave enough to "touch" something and have been on a learning curve ever since................
I am still ignorant of many aspects in this craft, but for what I want and what I have learned, I am comfortable with results so far..............
many mistakes, many "block backs" and happily - many very satisfying results...............
That's two pages of stuff I didn't want to post.............. just can't help it, I'm afraid............

My 2 cents worth for now.............. make sure you treat any rust/poorly finished areas before even thinking about painting...............the finish will ultimately depend on this.............

frats,
Rosco

[oldnek]

CamStuart, why don't you try and call a local panel shop, to see if you can come in and check out the ropes, or even offer via hand, from tidying up or sweeping to washing finished vehicles.(In a trade off for learning and watching or asking advise) Maybe contact a local Auto paint supplier to see if they do weekend courses. Or even try the TAFE for body courses.

I know it may sound useless or silly in the least, but to have a visual on what the tradies carry out is worth 50 times the amount of information that you can try and read upon....

If you can get a tradie to even show you a couple of basics, tips and techniques, it will save you loads of time and dollars.
The hands on experience is no doubt the best.

This forum is absolutely full of knowledge, from amatures who do have and give a go to pro builders ( whom maybe don't have any qualification and others who possibly are) and the quality of workmanship that members on the site produce, is in my opinion dictated by the people who do take the time out and post photos, and go through the various stages of there builds, from start to finish.
Other than than that, check out Malcom's progress or even Munroes work and go through those pics again, and take note of the finer points of the photos. You can even go back to EK283's work or My own EK.

Tips and tricks is the name of the game for some, but to many the outright skill of achieving something you have set out to tackle is another.

If I only marketed the paint finish on the first car I painted I would of been a millionaire, Its only in the last couple of years that Dulux came up with the Render effect. No seriously though it was pretty rough, but I kept at it, sought advise, tried different things and learnt from my own mistakes.
So with that get as much info as you need and try and watch a few pros to get the idea.

You can do it Mate.

Regards John

[rosco]

Sound advice John.

Unfortunately, it can be perplexing when a stage just "won't" work....until you "see" it done.

To see someone fully work up a panel is invaluable....................

What part of Tas are you in?
This forum is supported by many who belong to clubs - I suppose I should "fly the flag" here and point you towards one -
it is here where you can gain some much needed "one on one" information and assistance - often with very little monetary outlay........ or even to watch someone who has a "work in progress"..............

When you come to spraying - equipment, settings, distances, speed and appearance as the paint is being laid is almost impossible to fully be spoken of - but to see it even once and be "walked" through what is going on will save you much frustration and waste......

I still feel we need to find a small something to tackle before committing to taking on a whole panel or the purchasing of equipment........

I expect you have had some experience with spraying aerosols.........?
But as previously mentioned, you must prepare something properly before the paint process is started..........

Don't be afraid to give this a go Cam, I now find it a major part in the enjoyment of my old bus.

It is something you will learn forever...........if you persevere.......

and for the record.......... I have only ever "played" with acrylic and enamel - acrylic for panels, enamel for engine/trans and components........
I have absolutely no experience and very little knowledge of the other systems.
I feel solid colour acrylic is probably the most forgiving system I have used on anything.
A seemingly dull or mottled finish can be compounded to often produce an almost perfect result.
I have no experience with acrylic COB (clear over base) - that is, metalic/pearlescent base coat with a clear coating over the top..........

again, just aiming at guidance............

frats,
Rosco

[camstuart52]

Well what can I say!!!

I am so thankful to all of you who have responded.........must say rosco, oldnek and devilrod, the length of your responses is fantastic and the material even better!!!

I feel that mat paint will not be practical as I will want this car to evolve into something much like a work vehicle in the future. I have thought about a TAFE course but i`m trying to get an apprenticeship at the moment and this will take a lot of my time!!! But i do have a couple of people who might be able to help me out with some information, just feel like an annoyance, just like i do to you good people!!!

Giving it a go is not something i`m afraid of, nor making mistakes because this is just a natural step in learning any new skill, but having the information and the set routine on what has to be done and when, is really what i`m trying to find out. I have a garage which i can work out of, but the tools are something i will be buying as i need them!!!

I have used aerosoles, and a gun, but not enough to be fully confident, so obviously practice makes perfect. I think starting with a front guard should be ok, as long i have the information and process written, remembered or a information fall back.............

I`m from Hobart Tasmania and know of the FE-HR Holden Car Club down here, and i have thought about joining this, but just felt a bit strange without having a car on the road

Acrylic is definately the product of choice for what i`m doing by the sound of it!!! Makes sense to me to work with a product that is forgiving......when this is sprayed, do you rub back during coats and then re-apply another coat??? Also when not using COB do you buff and polish the last coat to shine???

Really my experience with this whole area is nil to none, but obviously i am willing and wanting to learn, i cant see the point in having someone do something for you, that really i could (should) be doing myself!!! Plus i think the more work you put into something the more you appreciate and enjoy, and really thats what this whole project for me is about, something i can look back on and be proud of, not because i paid someone to do it, but because i took the time to learn.

I know it wont be easy, but really i`m not worried, i think i`m quite handy with my hands and really i`m just lacking the technical side of things!!! Frustration is something you overcome when you see results, and results happen when you overcome frustration and stay focused. So its all a balancing act!!!

So i hope that i`m not annoying anyone with all my stupid questions, but I hope to intrigue people with my progress, and to have much laughter, tears, tantrems and beers on the way!!!

Anyway - I hope this helps you to understand me and where i want this to go a bit better......its not a show car, but something i do want to be proud of, and maybe, just maybe....have my name on the side oneday

Cam

[FB MAD]

Cam,

Don't ever think you are annoying anyone with "stupid questions", we are all here to help and get help.

Even the experts in their various fields in the auto industry started out knowing nothing.
Like you want to do, they got off their butts and had a go and learn't it.

Mechanical problems are easy for me as I'm an ex mechanic but put me in front of a damaged mudguard and tell me to repair and paint it and its all mumbo jumbo to me .

At least you are having a go at it and you will probably surprise your self at how good you can be.You'll make some mistakes sure but you'll learn from it.

The day you stop learning is the day you die, thats how I look at it!

Cheers,

Terry.

[camstuart52]

Thanks Terry,

Well I might be calling on you when i need help with some mechanical issues, because this is ALL new to me, but geez i want to know!!!

Thinking either sticking with the 173 thats in there and the 3 speed on the floor, or a 186.....just not sure!! Havent checked the condition of the engine in there (173) but just not sure really!!!

Really I think the body is the place to start.....but i guess you have to know what your doing mechanically also, especially if auto's and that were on the cards, which its not!!!

Well I hope i`m not annoying and i hope that oneday i can help someone!!!

[FB MAD]

Yep, throw any mechanical questions up and we'll all have a go at helping or send me a PM.

173's are OK but obviously the higher capacity 186 would give you some more horses.If you are keeping the grey crash box and want a floor shift Speco made a 3 speed floor shift for the grey crash boxes in the '60's and early '70's but they would be difficult to find now.
One sold on evilbay a few months back and stupid me didn't bid on it .

They also made 3 speed floor shifts for the red motor 3 speeds and they are a little bit easier to find.I've got one here in a HQ 6 cyl.

I'd probably get the body done first and then get stuck into the mechanicals.

There's some good info in a "sticky" at the top of one of the forum sections about how to start rebuilding your car if you haven't already found it.

Cheers,

Terry.

P.S. Just had a look and the how to start info isn't in a sticky ( although it probably should be ), its in the Tech Archive section under "Where to start".

Its got some very helpfull ideas there on how to go about a rebuild and trying to cut down on mistakes.

[camstuart52]

I always was under the impression that the 186 was a better engine!!! The 3 speed has a floor shift already attached (converted) so i guess thats one hassle that i dont have to worry about, from the 1 million others i do!!!

I just figured once the body is done the mechanicals can be built around it being careful of course of the fresh paint!!!

[rosco]

Hi Cam,
wont' be able to put much down for now - have to go to bed...........

Answer to a couple of your "furthers"

1/
If you have used a gun, I wouldn't suggest going aerosol - that was only if you wanted to get a "feel" prior to committing to purchase of equipment.

2/We did a tour of Tas in March last year and caught up with those chaps - there appears to be some very valuable contact there for you.

3/
With regard to not having a vehicle up and running - this is one of the big pluses of joining - you will get quality info prior to making many of those mistakes............ find out when/where they meet and stoll along - they will welcome you as a visitor and hopefully leave joining entirely up to yourself - I would expect that you will come away with so much info and assistance you will readily jump at the chance............... I haven't looked back -
have a peek at the "What's happening in Tasmania" section on the forum index - that will give you the contact............. find out where and when they meet - they may not have a meeting in January, some clubs don't.

4/
You must block back between primer/filler and top coats - usually from 600 - 800 grit - it provides the "keying" between coats, however the thinners in subsequent coats "fuse" or "melt" the next coat into the previous - providing you apply them "wet" enough without running.
You will need to allow sufficient time for the thinners to "flash off" before apply subsequent coats - this is important.

5/
Yes Cam, don't expect your first attempts to lay top coats down will result in a hi gloss finish - it can be done but requires a bit of experience.
What we are aiming at is good coverage and an almost "dust free" appearance............ we'll get to that later.......
I overlay my passes by one third over the previous.....again this comes later........
Most of us can get the finish "off the gun" pretty good, then compound or "buff" up by cutting compounds working from coarse through to fine.
You will hear of polish - most people use that word very loosely - ......... we'll get to that later too............

Providing you haven't sprayed further coats over a 'dusted" or air dried
coat - you can still get a "sandpaper" looking top coat to compound down to a gloss finish - better if you can get a gloss finish off the gun - but for your first attempts, you'll be amazed how "forgiving" acrylic solid colour can be.........................

I do all my blocking back and compounding by hand - I much prefer to spend the time - I have never used a buffer machine and will have to leave that to others.............

I have nearly re-sprayed my entire vehicle - started on it back in around early '90's and still going - roof I found the most demanding.

I use a suction gun - I have a gravity and on the occasions I have tempted fate - have had both success not so much success.
I have confidence with the suction although it is a high quality (Anest Iwata) unit.

You can get reasonable generic guns - I have used other peoples and found them to be a bit eratic....
I have also a little generic "touch up" gravity gun - it is this little unit that I have every confidence in - I don't do enough spraying with the big gun to confidently walk up and hit a panel without doing a few "test" patterns on an old fridge door.
Someone might give you their opinion on what it easier to use - for me, I am more comfortable with suction when it comes to big panels............

A good gun, if you look after it, will last for just about every job you'll ever do.
You may wish to purchase a cheaper unit first to play with - it can be used for primers etc. Keep you good gun for top coats.
If you are going to spray solid - I would suggest a 2.0 mm needle and tip.
This is just my opinion - most of us don't spray regularly enough to walk up and "shoot" every different type of paint without having to play around a bit with pressure and needle/fan adjustments a bit.

Again, it's going to be a case of what works for you, Cam........

If you can afford it, I would recommend a minimum 14 cfm compressor -
I have used a 12 cfm, but found with the big gun - I had to hold back and wait for the compressor to catch up - something we will discuss when it comes to identifying problems with a changing spray pattern........

Compressor, gun and lines are going to be your big outlays - paint will always be a "consumable" - you'll waste a bit before you get a feel for what you are doing - If you make a mess of it, let it fully dry then "block back" - another thing to be explained..........

I am glad to hear you have a shed/garage - this is important.

Another thing which we will expand apon later is humidity - I have a rule that I don't spray over around 40-50% humidity and certainly not over around 30 degrees in temperature - again Cam, this is "my" comfort zone in laying paint.

- I don't want to go any further with this at present - that should be enough for you to digest for the next day or two - I have probably caused more concern than I have answered............ keep the questions coming, no such thing as a stupid one - you ask because you don't know or aren't sure - stupid is when you don't ask.................

I'll leave the mechanical stuff to others this time.......... I'll give you a bit of info (as best I can) on paint for the time being.
I have a 179 with a 4 sp Aus and 3:08 diff - those three to my requirements are a very good combo - diff takes a bit of the sting out of it, but on the open road it gets along quite effortlessly at the limit. Consumption is around the 28/9/30 depending on wind and how much of a beating I give it.
Towing a boat - is down to around the 22/24 at the legal limit - again if there's wind it can drop a few below that.
I had a 3:55 in it previously - would climb walls but seemed to swallow gears without good speed - unless I took it "out" a bit in each.
3:08 made all the gears work a bit.

Finally Cam, I would sternly encourage you to make contact the the Hobart club - I can't tell you how much easier it is going to be to have someone to show you how to work up a panel.......... and also help with your first attempts/problems................

You will learn that my fingers pound out words much, much faster than I can speak them................... it must drive people on this site nuts........
Just can't seem to condense the wayh I explain things................

- hope this helps a bit - I am almost certain I have given you something to ponder on for a few hours...........

frats,
Rosco

[oldnek]

Right on Rosco, you've saved me a bit of typing.

Regards John