Seagull Grey EK 2106

[rosco]

Great work, Craig....it will have the "tongues" wagging at the next display.
Don't let the average "Bob" (Bill Cosby's mechanic) near it, though... I recall them both having trouble finding the fuel filler cap on a VW.... this one is clearly marked!

I do have the stainless tube with polished alloy cap - it works for me, but I'd probably have liked a larger capacity - I have seen coolant come out the bottom - and fitted an extension to the stainless overflow pipe underneath. Yours will be perfect.

One thing these systems are great for is getting rid of the flotsam which rides in the neck of the radiator. It gets flushed every time the engine goes through the warm up stage.

Further, I may have suggested - had I known you were onto this project - would have been a small sump and drain tap at the very bottom of the tank - minute iron particles could then be drained out.... but, with that sort of capacity - it's never going to go back into your system with a return pick up 1/2" above the tank base... the advantage of a drain tap would be to see what was coming out and for an occasional maintenance clearing of the tank.

With this capacity, there would not be need of an overflow - but there will be need of a vent of some description - a free to atmosphere vent... or the system will not work properly.

It will more than likely pressurise beyond the 7 lb... I believe that wonderful cap would have a return valve - but maybe not a pressure vent?
If you have any POR Glisten PC on your shelf - this would be great to use after polishing the cap... permanence - even if it is a steel cap.

Removing all air from your cooling system will add considerable longevity to it. Further, it affords a greater capacity as the "usual" 2" drop from hot to cold in the neck of the radiator is completely removed, and you eventually end up with a completely air purged system - which is great for avoiding any oxidisation within the neck of the radiator and cap. With periodic coolant changes, I foresee your cooling system outliving the working parts of the engine.

When next you are out in the scrub, it is somewhat comforting to enjoy the knowledge that the engine is getting full cooling efficiency when towing... more so on those huge climbs when there simply isn't any more power left. You would be well aware of the need to keep engine rpm's up when towing uphill...you've been around towing your boat for yonks. Others following this thread may draw something to consider from my thoughts.

Even if the motor could power the combination at low rpms under high load up a steep climb, it is important to consider that doing so places probably the greatest stress on the entire vehicle systems.

Air flow through the radiator is increased by the fan... but also, piston crown and exhaust valve EGT's are kept lower by the greater manifold airflow through the motor.. many don't appreciate this - it's about keeping air flow when towing, not to mention loads on bearings at lower oil flow and to a lesser extent - pressures.

I fitted a cooling system filter to mine when I first fitted the red motor. It was a clever unit which simply fitted in the lower radiator hose.
I had to cut the hose and remove a small section. The unit had a "V" shaped stainless screen in it, which was held in slots top and bottom to keep the filter in place. I was absolutely amazed at how much "rubbish" GEM engine re-conditioners left in the block and head....

The reason it was fitted to the bottom hose and not the top - is due to "draw" rather than "force". Fitting such a unit to the top hose is tempting fate with over-heating ... any trapped particles block up the screen due to them being "forced" into the holes and then further building on the blockages..... fitting it to the lower hose results in the "draw" of the water pump creating holes in any build up of matter.... this was told to me by the chap who sold it to me.... he was into racing formula "blue oval" (I can't type the F word because this forum does something frantic with the word). They had enormous issues with overheating when fitting the filter to the top hose - completely eradicated the issue when moved to the bottom one.... a lot of this did not make sense to me... why would you "not" fit it to the top hose and keep the radiator clear?... the answer to this was given as the filter was designed to get rid of the fine matter - which apparently is what causes most issues... the "rocks" don't get past the tubes in the top tank of the radiator anyway.... fitting the filter to the top hose will quickly block it - rocks and all....

I no longer have the unit fitted - after about the third periodic coolant change - nothing further was coming out... when I replaced the hoses, I did not re-fit it. I may do so now that the vehicle spends much of its life simply sitting around....

Another big advantage in it was that it had a screwed cap - which allowed you to quickly drop the coolant from the system.... clean the filter and re-fit it then re-fill the system... the entire process could be done in less than 5 minutes...... not that you'd ever put cold water back into a hot engine.. etc. etc.


I have just finished a full coolant change in the 1VD V8 diesel motor of the 200.... it's an absolute mongrel to do. Refilling the system takes well over 30 minutes, there are purging valves in both the block, heads and radiator.... bringing up the final 3 litres goes in 200 ml lots.... fill, purge, fill.... I'm almost certain that Toyota use some form of air extraction.. the entire coolant change took me close to 2 hours.......... working on a 6 cylinder Holden is bliss compared to this beast.

If you run a coolant temperature gauge in this vehicle, you'll more than likely observe more consistent temperatures and note that the thermostat operates at more closely to its settings. This, I believe is entirely due to purging air from the system... it most likely becomes resident in some parts of the engine... the continual heating and cooling process when driving - especially when going up and down steep hills eventually will purge all these little pockets out.

The only disadvantage I can foresee with a completely purged system is in the radiator cap itself..... once purged, if it fails to open - well, the "power" of hydraulics can be appreciated in reference to our braking system.... you can only imagine how destructive this would be on a cooling system with fine copper and brass in both the radiator and cabin heater element... stick with the 7 1b.
I do a "self-check" every now and then... simply by squeezing the upper hose until the radiator cap lets go... makes a pulsating/vibrating sound as the rubber seal buffets against the spring .... it's just me, but I do it regardless.

Ok, I guess I've just about spilled most of what I have to post on cooling systems... other than sternly recommending a periodic change using quality coolant.

frats,
Rosco

[Craig Allardyce]

Your on fire Rosco!!

Mate all good, I fitted a drain tap at the bottom and there's loads of room to catch it with a container underneath. The cap is pretty simple and is well vented. I don't have an overflow from the tank as I'm not expecting to exceed the volume I've allowed.

[Craig Allardyce]

Another job done today. Finally got my radio fitted and the AM transmitter. Now I can enjoy all my tunes with fine enhanced distortion, crackling, and the mono tone effects of the Holden Deluxe radio!
Seriously the RediRads work a treat. I have one in the FB too. Still can use the normal AM band, just plug in your IPOD or whatever, the unit automatically switches over to that input and transmits via the existing antenna connection. Simply tune the radio to that frequency and your set.

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[Craig Allardyce]

Well one step forward and 10 back. Did a run to Melbourne and back, about a 500km round trip. Header tank was a success but my breather pipe on the engine decided to have a blurt of oil all under the car. Lost about a litre, had oil dripping off the diff.
So all my theories are out the back door. The only constant to this problem is OIL. A coupe of road tests around home obviously weren't enough. SO the next thought is ok, too much oil flooding the top end? Cam bearing issue with the oil feed? etc
Crankcase pressure tested ok so I'm putting that thought to bed. Oil pressure is also within spec and not high either.

Leak Occurs during long runs at high engine RPM (constant 100kph) and what seems at high oil temps. I have also noticed I have really good oil feed to the rockers to the extent that it runs like a river back to the sump.
So now I trying something and restricting the oil feed to the rockers. This is a known technique with racers that run engines at high rpms for long periods. I set it up so I still have enough oil to see it exiting from the small holes in the top of the rockers and there is minimal but I hope enough splash for cooling and lubricating the valve springs, push rods, etc

What has me stumped is for all this problem there is nothing modified to cause it, oil pressures, oil type and quantities are in spec, etc Its doing my head in!! I've had many of a standard worn grey motor in the past that I have flogged for hours on a hwy and never had this issue. Could there be a change to oils these days with misting and or retention of oil in the crankcase air stream?

These pics are only of a dummy set up of some old parts to show what I have done. The insides of my engine aren't that filthy!

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[rosco]

Annoying, Craig - to say the least.
There will be cause, and more than likely from some yet to be identified issue.

The first thing that comes to mind is the breather cap - I don't know why or how, but at higher rpms the fan would be running a lot of air through it..... just perhaps, and again - for no apparent reason - this flow is picking up oil as it drains past the side-plate breather.

I don't know if it may offer you any option - but is there any chance of creating and fitting a deflector above the side plate vent....

My only suggestion is that for some reason, either the draught under the vehicle or forced flow of air through the breather cap is sufficient to draw oil.

I would probably not take the flow reduction path, if it were up to me. The top end needs lots of lubrication - as you well know, I'd hate to run that lean of oil.. there's a lot going on up there - rockers, shaft springs and bushes - not to mention the valve heads and pushrod ends and screws....

Finally, I have to ask?.. what oil are you running in this motor.
I would have considered that this issue had shown up on previous occasions... something appears to have changed - guess it's going to be a bit of a recap on work you have done, or anything extraneous which has been altered....

This one will be very enlightening to follow - when you find root cause - I'm guessing many of us will get an education for the better...

frats,
Rosco

[Craig Allardyce]

G'day Rosco, I'm running Penrite HPR30 20W/50.
Yep, very annoying. Considering I drove my FB all the way to Cowra and back and never had an issue, and that engine was modified, it's frustrating.
I'm looking for something that has changed, but I've never driven this motor before it was rebuilt. Maybe its something inherent in this block. I just did a run with the oil feed restricted and it seems to have slowed it. I say "seemed" and I'm not holding my breath.

I have run the breather cap backwards to negate the air flow and done all the other mods but once you hit the road and fang it for a long trip it bleeds everywhere. There's a bloke on our powerboat forum who his having the same problem with a 308 in an old hydroplane. It would throw out that much oil out of each rocker breather that he would fill his catch cans as well as coat himself in the boat. I think he even eventually runs out of oil too (loss of pressure). He runs consistent non stop 7500rpm. Apparently the old time fix to this was putting roll pins in the push rods. I still cant get past that my engine is pretty well standard, so its either something is wrong or buggered or something has changed dramatically.

I acknowledge the requirement for plenty of oil to the top end but am a little convinced that I am getting a little too much. I have always noticed an amount of oil leaking from the breather cap after a run. When I had the camshaft gear issue I ran the engine with the cover off to check the oil feed to the gears. I couldn't believe the amount of oil that cam out pretty much at the turn of the key, all from that little restricted fitting. It was dripping off the guards! I think the engine ran for 5 seconds!

There's no real room inside the side plate to do much other than the cover plate as I have done. Other than making another breather pipe with an S bend in it or making the pipe vertical and cutting a hole in the bonnet I've run out options really as I want to keep it standard as possible.

[FJWALLY]

Hey Craig - I recall when you removed and refreshed the motor you had pretty high oil flow into the external filter - could it be an oil pump issue - perhaps a later model oil pump has been fitted or something amiss from the pump internals letting far more oil flow than standard?

[rosco]

Ok, Craig - we can probably rule out the Penrite oil 20W50 for now, I run 20W60 in the same brand in my red and don't have a misting issue... or it would be burning it up through the PCV.... the motor does not use oil..... internally, but the rear seal drips about 10 drops each time the motor is stopped.... usual deal.... wick type seal dried up due to non-use over a number of years... and I replaced it with a neoprene one... dripped ever since - but not when running.

I am still struggling to understand why the breather pipe is picking it up - the only thing I can relate to it is that the rocker assembly is simply smashing it into vapor mist at high rpms.... and the air-flow is doing the rest.
In a grey, there's a lot going on above the head..... not as much with a red - there are less components.

Does the good book make any reference to orientation of these relief/oiling ports?... is it possible that one of them is pointed towards something which forces the flow to be directed at where a vent in the side plate breather baffle gets a direct feed?... I'm really struggling with this one - and no, the motor should not be using oil if it is mechanically sound and there aren't any leaks.

It is dumping through the vent pipe - for now, we should be able to rule out anything extraneous to this. The side plate breather vent can't possibly be getting anything other than crankcase feed..... unless one of the pushrod ports above the cam lobes is the form of supply... as in, the cam bearing gallery is damaged. You state that the motor is a re-build.... at the risk of spilling oil everywhere (worth the effort if all else fails) running the motor in the mid-range with the side plate off might reveal a pressurised spray towards the vent baffle...
I do appreciate you have good oil pressure - but the oil pump is able to more than compensate for a fracture.... more so if the crank bearings and journals etc. etc are in great nick......
When the oil is hot, at idle and with the handbrake applied - let the clutch out sufficiently to drop the idle speed right down to a "roll"... the oil light should "just" flicker.... of course, an accurate oil pressure gauge would be of more use... but, without messing around fitting one - the oil light might reveal a solid light below normal idle speed... I'd go looking at pressure and a possible cause if that comes up.

Again, Craig - I'm really thrusting at windmills here (Don Quiote)... I can't yet understand why the side-plate breather is picking up this oil
- and I'm struggling to suggest anything which can be done to determine the source.
I'll take a stroll back through my book and try to make some sense of it..... never know, one of the books I have might just give us a bit of a lead.....

I'll bang back in later when I've had a read..

frats,
Rosco

[Craig Allardyce]

Hey Craig - I recall when you removed and refreshed the motor you had pretty high oil flow into the external filter - could it be an oil pump issue - perhaps a later model oil pump has been fitted or something amiss from the pump internals letting far more oil flow than standard?

Nuh Wally, its the original pump but with a new gear set. Oil pressure is well within specs. I did however think that maybe the oil feed restrictor to the oil filter was too large and was thinking the return oil into the block being excessive may have been hitting the conrod and causing excess splash below the camshaft and relief drains from the push rod gallery. I ran it without the filter and it still leaked.

[Craig Allardyce]

Yeh looked at that and some Rosco.
A few other things I checked during the build, as in all I do, were conrod side clearance in the journal, conrod oil squirter ports and orientation, distributor drive gear squirter hole in the block, any cracks near oil galleries, unplug and clean main oil gallery front to rear, etc. As above also the return oil feed from the oil filter into the block. I'm also super critical with checking bearing clearances and I always makes sure cranks and journals are machined to the minimum allowable.
Thinking it was splash from the bottom end coming back up the return ports between the lifters I ended in running the engine without the side plate on.......bugger all!
So now I'm thinking the quantity of oil returning from the top end and running down to the tappet area is the issues in that the excessive volume is creating a heap splashed oil (tappets oscillating) around the sideplate and breather pipe.

Anyway I've a couple of quick runs (about 50km) and it seems ok. Tomorrow we hook up the van and head off to Marlo for a re attempt for that trip with new 8Plys now, so hopefully no blow outs!

[Errol62]

Got this filler cap off an EJ at Port Wakefield.
It has a smaller trumpet than the EK ones I think and looks to be factory. I wonder if this was a solution for such a problem back on the day.


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[Craig Allardyce]

Yeh I've always wondered about that change. I'm guessing I'm in the land of scientific discovery at the moment!

[rosco]

Ok, Craig - just thought I'd bounce that lot off you anyway....never know, sometimes you doubt your own work once it's all back together - nice to learn you checked it all whilst going through the build.

Guess we'll find out after Marlo...

Here's hoping the run with the 8 ply's ticks that box as being finished..

Hope you have a safe run, don't forget to take the time to smell the roses - you can do the "other" stuff at home..

frats,
Rosco

[Craig Allardyce]

Well at last we have had some success....touch wood. Just finished our little jaunt to Marlo and after a faultless trip we decided a detour Buchan from Orbost then on to home. All in all I think there were a few small drops of oil on the lower wishbone and drag link. It's a vast improvement. Wondering now if the oil groove in the cam bearing journal had been recut the full diameter when the cam was reground. Its unlikely but this would explain the excess oil to the top. Disappointing that I missed it if it was. Now have to work a way how to check it without pulling the cam.
Anyway it was great trip and the car pulled well throughout the trip from Orbost following the Snowy River up to Buchan. Just love how it held top gear all the way and was unfussed down to 20mph. A very windy and hilly drive about 60km for that leg which took about an hour. Only thing we saw was an EJ sedan going the other was, 1 tiger snake on the road, and about a dozen kangaroos on the side of the road as we skirted the Snowy River National Park.

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[Craig Allardyce]

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