Harv's FED thread

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Errol62
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Errol62 »

Where you going to put this one Harv?


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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Dragster in the shed, just, on the trailer.

If I had a boat, the carport and driveway would look like The Castle.

"Oh Steve could you move the Camira I need to get the Torana out so I can get to the Commodore."
"I’ll have to get the keys to the Cortina if I’m gonna move that Camira."
"Yeah watch the boat mate."


Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Blacky
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Blacky »

happy days mate, you have some work ahead of you now :thumbsup:
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Fit and fiddle.

Packed the laundry:
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Tiller:
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327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Loud pedal:
B92AF031-78A9-4925-9F6A-A229A1662E04.jpeg
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Two-on-the-wall:
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327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Rough position of the anchors handle:
D16D8EC6-74B9-4420-9930-B40BC5BA5780.jpeg
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Left some poor kids bike up on blocks at the local milk bar:
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1EABF84C-FD8D-4477-B3EC-5DAB92CE0A6F.jpeg (3.48 MiB) Viewed 787 times
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by BS »

Very cool


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Blacky
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Blacky »

8) 8) looking forward to seeing this come together
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Some more progress on fuel pumps.

Some time back I got the McGee grey-motor fuel pump tested. This is the little one that sits on top of the magneto angle drive, and neatly clears the Repco inlet manifold.

Angle drive assembled with pump and magneto side view.JPG
Angle drive assembled with pump and magneto side view.JPG (129.21 KiB) Viewed 732 times

Flow bench testing showed that at 4000rpm the little pump ran out of oomph. Not good... once a mechanical pump runs out of flow, the engine speed keeps increasing but there is no fuel to go with it. The car leans out, and the crowd gets entertained by the sparkly bits of piston coming out the zoomies. It would probably be OK for a static display car, or a car that was driving on the street, but not so great for what I want to do.

Plan B: we needs another fuel pump. I've got two more McGee pumps, both the later style that were used on the red motor. I can't find a photo of one assembled, but there we overhauled this one here: viewtopic.php?t=23332&start=45
It's a little taller than the grey motor one, so won't fit under the Repco manifold (bugger). Lots of looking at cam driving it led to despair... the cam snout pops out of the timing cover right in the middle of the supercharger belt. Not a smart place to put a pump. I'd have to extend the pump waaaaay forward, and it would look ungainly. Could belt drive it, but that just adds another belt and complication. Aim is to drive the pump off the angle drive - the end of the angle drive pointing forwards drives the magneto, and will modify the end pointing rearwards to drive the fuel pump. That poor cam gear will be under some load driving both magneto and fuel pump. There is enough room (just) for the fuel pump to clear the FED engine plate. You then spend a good 30 minutes thinking about which way the pump spins. This involves twisting your hands around and tilting your head a lot.

Of course, all this depends on the pump being able to put out enough fuel. To make the Modified class, I'm going to need around 220 ponies at the crank. Doable, but not easy. Opinions vary on what the correct brake specific horsepower is for blown methanol. The answer is somewhere between 1.5-2.2 lb of methanol/hour/horsepower. Most references are closest to 2lb/h/hpp, so lets use that number. At 220 ponies, I need 440lb/h of methanol which is 7.3lb/minute (at 6.603lb/gallon this is 1.11gpm).

How do we know what the pump can do? Easy... find someone with a pump flowbench and have them run it. The bench uses methanol, with a variable speed electric motor to spin up the pump. The circuit has a needle valve on the pump discharge, which can be closed in to make the pump discharge pressure climb (its a positive displacement pump - at a given speed it will put out the same gpm... you just get more pressure depending on how restrictive the fuel system is downstream). Mechanical injection runs somewhere between 50 and 100psi fuel pressure. With the pump on the flow bench (and rotated the right way... more head tilting) I get 7.51lb/min at 4,000 pump rpm (8000 crank rpm) and 100psi.

So the pump is capable of flowing what I need, but not by much (7.5 vs. 7.3 lb/min). There might be a little more in the second pump, which is being tested now. Plan for now is to use this pump type, so the angle drive got sent away again to modify. The McGee pump pattern will get drilled out to Hilborn. This is a funky 3-bolt uneven pattern used to prevent WW2 aircraft mechanics fitting the pump the wrong way. Does no harm to the pump, and means that if I need to I can later change to a slightly larger Hilborn 00 pump (11 lb/min).

Next thinking is sizing up the nozzles (the 6 squirters that dribble fuel into the inlet) and pill. The combination of these determines how restrictive the fuel system is, and hence the fuel pressure. Too big a nozzle and the fuel pressure goes low... the nozzles really do dribble. Too high a pressure and the poor pump works hard, and the pill sizes get tiny (and expensive). There is some science in this... more to follow.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Onwards to nozzles. The injection process uses a pump to put fuel into the motor. The pump spins up as the engine spins, giving more fuel as the engine need it. In fact, the pump provides a little too much fuel, so some is sent back to the tank by the primary bypass. The primary bypass has a “pill” in it, which is just a small piece of brass with a hole in it. You change the size of the pill (bigger or smaller hole) to tune how much fuel the car gets, and how much goes back to the tank.

The pill works in conjunction with the nozzles, which are the squirters that spray fuel into the engine. The nozzles have a fine hole in them too, and can limit flow. Normally you don’t change the nozzles to turn the car – they stay fixed, and you tune the pill instead. Nozzles are sized by how much they flow, with every nozzle manufacturer having a different view. They are often referenced back to the Hilborn scale, which tests nozzles at 30psi. The table below shows the Hilborn sizes (#4a through to #20A) and how much they flow (in both GPM and lb/minute of methanol).

Hilborn nozzle sizes.png
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So how big should the nozzles be? In practice, about big enough to give 100psi of fuel pressure.

Take as an example a car running as per the image below. The car is running (imagine the banshee wail), spinning the pump up fast enough to deliver 10gpm. The engine only needs 8gpm, so the pill is selected to make 2gpm flow back to the tank. Because the nozzles are a little big, the fuel pressure only gets to 50psi. It’s not the end of the world, but 50psi doesn’t give great vapourisation out the nozzles.

Oversized nozzle.png
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We could swap in smaller nozzles, like the image below. The car is still running at the same revs, the pump still puts out 10gpm, and the engine still only needs 8gpm. The smaller nozzles make it more difficult for the pump to put 2gpm into the engine, so the fuel pressure ends up higher (in this case 100psi). The pill will also be a little smaller too. With 100psi the fuel is better vapourised.

Correct sized nozzle.png
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We could go too far though, and put in tiny nozzles like the image below. Fuel pressure comes up to 150psi, making the pump work hard (more load on the gears and drive, more leakage past the seals). The pill would need to be much smaller too, with the tiny pill sizes being more expensive. There is less room to move tuning with tiny pill sizes, making life harder at the track.

Undersized nozzle.png
Undersized nozzle.png (14.73 KiB) Viewed 701 times

So how big a nozzle do I need? This is often experienced based. Ken Lowe’s book reckons that an 150-180ci engine (like mine at 155ci) needs the equivalent of a Hilborn #10A nozzle set. I can get other opinions, but for now that will do as a starting point for me.

The injection set came with McGee “18X” nozzles. The nozzles are 90-degree (three left, three right) with a -3AN fuel inlet fitting. The thread that screws into the injector manifold is 1/8-27NPT, and they have two 0.134” external vents for aeration. I had these flow tested, and they run to 0.38lb/min@30psi (22.8pph) and 0.51lb/min@50psi (30.6pph). This is close to a Hilborn #5.75 (not quite a #6), and a little too small for what I am doing (it would drive fuel pressure waaaay over 100psi).

So on to Plan B. The injector set also came with six spare straight nozzles. These have a 0.121” internal bore (massive compared to the 0.018” 18X nozzles), and two external vent holes (0.093” and 0.063”). These don’t have an AN connection, just NPT, and need small inserts to mate them to either AN or SAE hoses (more info on those inserts in my McGee thread: viewtopic.php?t=23332). I suspect the inserts needed have a very fine hole to allow the nozzles to be controlled. I borrowed an insert from another set I have with 0.034” holes, and got the nozzles to flow 1.37lb/min@30psi (82.2pph) and 1.80lb/min@50psi (108pph). This is close to a Hilborn #20+… waaaay too big for me. It would make fuel pressure way too far below 100psi, and likely would dribble instead of vapourise. To use the Plan B nozzles I would need new inserts made up, with holes smaller than 0.034” and larger than 0.018”. This is fiddly work… it would be easier to source new nozzles.

So I’m on the hunt for some Hilborn 10A nozzles. Hilborn no longer make them, but I can get equivalent Enderle nozzles provided I am willing to sell a kidney to import some. I think I have a lead on some through one of the Repco head gentlemen… will post back here if I am successful.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Twopints
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Twopints »

Just remember Harvs you are running a big blender and putting heat in to the system between the injector nozzles and the inlet valve so less that optimal at the injector is not the end of the world at the inlet valve
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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Agree.

The Norman will provide a lot of mixing and some vapourisation from the vane heat. I can have (relatively) mismatched nozzles into the Norman and the engine won't know the difference.

If this thing ran with no supercharger, the nozzles would be a lot more critical for vapourisation and would need to flow the same into each cylinder.

I suspect that I will end up with the injectors running uphill, due to the Norman's port location. Any pooling fuel will tend to dribble out, so good vaporisation is still useful. I will run pretty rich (around 5.5:1 AFR) for the extra cooling, so no lack of wet stuff in the front end.

injector flowing uphill.png
injector flowing uphill.png (15.04 KiB) Viewed 662 times

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Harv wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:06 am The drama is that the block was tunnel bored with the girdle in place. Now that stupid me had to cut the ends off the girdle, it may no longer be true. Strip all the bits off it, torque up the caps and baby girdle, and off to Duncan Foster to measure for roundness. Wish me luck.
Dammit... machine shop checked the tunnel, and it has shifted with the girdle modified. Needs to be tunnel bored again. One step forward, one step back.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Blacky
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Blacky »

Harv wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:26 pm

Dammit... machine shop checked the tunnel, and it has shifted with the girdle modified. Needs to be tunnel bored again. One step forward, one step back.

Cheers,
Harv
It's only money mate :crazy: :crazy:
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Harv
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Re: Harv's FED thread

Post by Harv »

Block tunnel bored and back home.

This is what baby Hilux diffs look like. If you feed them VB and Bunnings snags they grow up to be Landcruiser diffs.

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4.7:1 centre, full spool.

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Battery in and wired.

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Starter-er

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Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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