Harv's meth monster project

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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

On step forward, one step back.

Crank #6 was a success, and passed it's crack test. It's a virgin crank, and will go 10 thou under this time. It gives me one more rebuild (20 thou under) in the future before the Mitsubishi conrods won't be able to supply undersized bearings (no 30, 40, 60 etc). It will now get a tidy up, have the snout drilled for a harmonic balancer installer/balancer retention bolt, and turned down to give a more appropriate interference fit for the Ross harmonic balancer (the factory fit on the Ross balancers is waaaaaaay too tight... massive amount of pounding with a BFH to get one on to a standard crank).

Now for the next drama. The machinist pulled my sexy new conrods out of the box, and they don't fit :(

Several years ago I did my research with the lumpy humpy guys, and worked out the conrods I would need. Standard grey rods are not too bad, but my mental picture is that I do not want anything failing from the bores upwards (in order to limit damage to the block, pistons and head) as the parts that lie above the bores owe me a fortune. If the weak point is the crank, generally everything from the bores up is recoverable when things let go. A snapped rod however can cause major block and piston carnage.

The grey motor go-fast boys reccomend using Mitsubishi rods from the 4G63 motor. The 4G63 was a 1997cc 4-cylinder engine produced in both naturally aspirated and turbocharged form from 1980. It continues in use with some Chinese manufacturers, and was the powerplant of the Lancer Evolution when Tommi Mäkinen won his four consecutive WRC championships. Early versions of the 4G63 (prior to April 1992) used thicker con rods, smaller gudgeon pins, a broader big end width and six bolts to secure the flywheel to the crankshaft (later versions used seven bolts).

Eagle offer five different forged H-beam rods for the 4G63, all of which are 5.9” long, 45mm rod journal, 48mm housing bore, are fixed with ARP bolts and exceed ASME E-4340 steel standards. Most use the later 22mm gudgeon pin diameter. The rods are available as either standard, or extreme duty.

4G63 conrods.PNG
4G63 conrods.PNG (12.02 KiB) Viewed 1091 times

Typically the early 6-bolt rods are used on genuine Holden cranks (like mine), though need ~0.008” surface facing. The later 7-bolt rods are normally used on the aftermarket billet cranks as the reduced big-end width provides less crank stress. Because I am using a standard crank, I went with the 6-bolt CRS5900MCXD rods. In theory, these are 1.117" wide across the big-end. Legend has it that you take 8 thou off (making them about 1.109" wide) then bolt them up to a standard grey crank. What it looks like though is that my crank is (roughly) 1.180" wide on the big end journals. This means that there is roughly 70 thou of end-float on the big ends (waaaaaay too much... big end float should be about 3 to 10 thou). With 70 thou of float, there are two risks. One is that the conrod moves with the crank thrust, and ends up running to one side of the journal (remember that the piston end of the conrod has massive float and will let the rod move a lot laterally). I could get smart and limit the rod movement at the piston end - as I am getting forged pistons made, they can make the piston boss tighter, ala' Rolls Royce. However, the bigger risk is that the huge end float gives less oil control, and I can't keep oil up to the big ends. Not cool.

I've done some basic checks over the phone with the machinist. There is a risk that I have somehow ended up with the 7-bolt CRS5900MBXD rods. This would explain why I have 70 thou too much float - the difference between the two rods is 68 thou. The part numbers on the conrod box and invoice are correct though, and the rods measure up correctly to 1.117" wide across the big-end.

It could also be that the crank has been machined at some stage (odd though... this is a virgin crank). A quick check on the (cracked) crank #5 shows it is also roughly 1.180" wide on the big end journals, just like crank #6. I'm starting to wonder if GMH made two widths of big-end journals, though somehow doubt it (Rob, any memory of a crank change during the humpy years?).

So machining on hold until I sort the end float issue. More sleuthing to follow.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

Hi Harv,
Rob is over in Adelaide and I happen to be having breakfast with him. Not aware of any changes to big end widths in the greys.
Cheers
Clay


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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Bugger. Many thanks (and thanks also for the lifters).

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

Don’t thank me yet Harv. We have eight decent ones. The remainder have the top sides broken off, likely by bent pushrods. We are pretty sure they are the later lifters.


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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

No drama. I have a small collection of orphaned lifters... most not salvegeable, but some better than others. I also have an offer from one of the FX/FJ gentlemen who has a similar collection. Between mine, his and your lifters I am hoping to make a set.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

I think I have landed the grey motor conrod issue. As above, I wanted to run the Mitsubishi conrods, but had dramas with end float. Attached below is a good summary for the next idiot wanting to run the Mitsi rods:

The standard Holden grey motor connecting rods can be replaced with superior, more modern versions from the Mitsubishi 4G63 motor. The 4G63 was a 1997cc 4-cylinder engine produced in both naturally aspirated and turbocharged form from 1980. It continues in use with some Chinese manufacturers, and was the powerplant of the Lancer Evolution when Tommi Mäkinen won his four consecutive WRC championships. The early versions of the 4G63 (prior to April 1992) used thicker con rods, smaller gudgeon pins, a broader big end width and six bolts to secure the flywheel to the crankshaft. The later versions used seven bolts on the flywheel. The later 7-bolt rods are normally used on the aftermarket billet cranks as the reduced big-end width provides less crank stress. The earlier 6-bolt rods are typically used on standard GMH cranks. Either rod will require custom pistons to account for the new gudgeon pin height and diameter.

The standard GMH crank pin is 1.748” diameter. The 4G63 cranks are 1.771” diameter – some 23 thou larger. This means that the standard 4G63 bearings will not fit the grey motor crank. The 4G63 bearings are available as follows:

Table 1.png
Table 1.png (47.02 KiB) Viewed 1044 times

This means that the GMH crank needs to be either virgin, or at best 10 thou undersized before starting. For example, a crank that is 0.030” undersized will not be able to find bearings to suit the Mitsubishi rods.

Eagle offer five different forged H-beam rods for the 4G63, all of which are 5.9” long, 45mm rod journal, 48mm housing bore, are fixed with ARP bolts and exceed ASME E-4340 steel standards. Most use the later 22mm gudgeon pin diameter. The rods are available as either standard, or extreme duty. The rod weights are very similar to the original grey motor rods, despite the increased strength (for example the CRS5900MCXD rod and fastener assembly, sans bearings, is 7% lighter than the GMH offering).

Table 2.png
Table 2.png (25.01 KiB) Viewed 1044 times

Note that when using a billet crank the crank is manufactured to suit the specific rod chosen. When fitting the Mitsubishi rods to a standard GMH crankshaft, there is a significant end float. The standard GMH crankshaft big end journals are 1.182” wide. The larger Mitsubishi rods are 1.117” wide. The resultant end float (1.182”-1.117”) is 0.065”. This is vastly in excess of the factory GMH end float (0.003”-0.010”). In the original grey motor the big end float is used to control the rod position. The small end of the rod has substantive float. When using the Mitsubishi rods, the custom pistons must be manufactured such that the little end float is small enough to control rod movement. This requires some design thinking to ensure that the little end splash lubrication is not compromised. Special Piston Services has experience in manufacturing this type of piston.

One concern voiced is that the increased big end float will lead to loss of oil control. This is not correct, as evidenced by increased big end float being used on many Top Alcohol cranks in order to allow journal edge radiusing (to prevent the sharp journal edge providing a stress riser). Confirmation that large big-end clearance is acceptable has also been confirmed with Auscrank, who both fit standard GMH cranks and billet units with the Mitsubishi rods. Discussion with Geoff Scott (who built Mark Riek’s turbocharged FX ute) indicates that there are more than six engines running the 0.065” clearance (including Mark’s original build) with no loss of oil control.

So (thankfully) I can use the Mitsi rods on my virgin, crack-free crank #6. Onwards!

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Bought some ram tubes for the Repco head from JNT Performance.

http://www.jntperformance.com.au/index_c269035.html

They are a wee-tad wide :mrgreen: . Thought about staggering them (one up, two down) to get them to sit beside each other, but did not like the look... too much like a V8 Supercar induction. Decided to trim them instead as per 60's fuel injection. Un-molested one on the right, trimmed ones on the left:
ram tubes.JPG
ram tubes.JPG (101.91 KiB) Viewed 999 times
One of the local sheetmetal mobs is making up the base plate to mount them on, and doing some fancy TIG work. I'll then get a custom filter sock made up (one for the left bank of three, one for the right bank of three), similar to what I did with the triple Strommie ram tubes I did a few years back:

http://www.fbekholden.com/forum/viewtop ... be#p195528

More photos to come.

Not so good news on the repro head though... machinist is ill, and I'm no longer likely to receive the head this year :(

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

Nice. Been thinking about ram tubes inside a plenum box plumbed to filter and cold air intake for years. One day....

Sorry bout the head. Father Christmas didn't think you'd been good. Do some work on house. Get Browny points. Head for Easter.

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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Errol62 wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:55 amFather Christmas didn't think you'd been good.
Damn... another year where all I get is a lump of coal in my stocking :( :lol:

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

With the wagon now on the road, its time to get a little more serious on the meth monster project. Kinda stuck motorwise, as I need the head (still waiting :(). So in the meantime, I'll work the rest of it.

Had the engineer out for the approval-in-principle discussion. Very few dramas - looks like I got the OK for a bored out, Repco headed, dry sumped, Norman blown, McGee injected, LSD'd, Impala shifted FB sedan... on NSW rego :mrgreen:

Few things either confirmed or needing change though:
a) doesn't need a chassis kit.
b) Hilborn scoop not OK, must be full covered scoop (fibreglass is OK) meeting visibility guidance.
c) Bonnet can be glass but needs original catch and probably a steel frame. Not OK to run guards or doors in glass, but boot OK.
d) OK to move radiator forwards to clear gilmer drive.
e) trans hump hole needs reinforcing
f) remote booster OK, start by front brakes boosting only.
g) Moon tank not OK, even if mounted inside bodywork (nothing at front of car).
h) retractor reels needed on outboard seatbelt positions, rears OK on parcel shelf with stickyflex holding the reinforcing plates in. Rears may need bolts onto wheel arch, no sharing bolts between belts. Need to replace my B-pillar sash mount holes.
i) will need brake test but would not if I used the same brakes as the wagon.
j) check track but OK in principle for kingpin front end with disks.
k) trim removal OK
l) Alien collapsible column OK with cert.
m) Probably only need to see clearances once assembled, nothing else specific to see as car is assembled.

Ordered the brakes, and the disks-to-stubaxle adaptors. Column is on it's way (nods to Mr Black), 2-speed wipers arrived and safely stashed away.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

No rest for the wicked. Good on you Harv.

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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by thebrotherj »

Great news, watching with interest!
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by FJWALLY »

Nice Harv - never a dull moment at your joint.
You will find me lost somewhere!
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