Harv's meth monster project

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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

The blokes at Duncan Foster got round to boring the EJ block, or at least the first cylinder as a test. It has got them worried, as there is not too much cylinder block left to support the sleeve. If the sleeves go in without cracking the block, it will have to be grouted.

I can survive with some grouting. It is typical to grout a block up to the top of the welshplugs, with little effect on street driven cars. There is a rumour that you need to fit an oil cooler as the lower water jacket (now filled with grout) cools sump oil. This may be the case with some blocks, but definitely not the case with a grey - there is a good 7.25" air gap between water and oil levels:

coolant jacket height for grey motor.png
coolant jacket height for grey motor.png (7.17 KiB) Viewed 824 times

Given I am dry-sumping, there will not be much oil mist in the lower block either to release heat to the water jacket. I am running an oil cooler, so might get away with full grouting. Was thinking of a finned air-cooler for the oil, but might have to make it a water/air cooler. Perhaps I could use a hydramatic radiator, and use the trans fluid side as a sumpoil cooler :think:

If I fully grouted, I would need to dry-deck the head (separate head and block coolant). No big deal as the block is full of grout. Sure would solve head cooling dramas if all the flow went to the head only... no need for fancy gaskets :lol: .

Could get hot though, and I end up with a race-only motor. Not sure if I want to do that, or choose another block and go for a smaller bore size. Will think it through and discuss with Duncan Foster next week when I am home.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

The good men at Duncan Foster have been patiently tinkering away for me. I made the call that I was not happy with a fully grouted block, so the 83mm bore is no longer an option.

I dropped off another EJ block to them, and they have done a crap-load of ultrasonic testing. This block is a lot better than the previous one (more meat in the cylinder walls), and a lot better than their last grey motor customer (who went through 4 blocks before finding one, and even that one wasn't as thick as mine). Happy days.

Bore size has been finalised at 3.250", after confirmation yesterday that rings are available to suit. There is plenty of meat to make this a reliable engine, rather than one with paper-thin cylinder walls. It will end up being a 156ci engine, unless Duncan Foster can offset grind the crank (crank work is the next challenge).

Should have the block done by months end, which will let me make a tracing of the bores. Send the tracing off to the repro-Repco head maker so that he can blend the chambers back into the block. That should get the head progressing again. Have had confirmation that the roller rockers have now been made, so should not be much more to do before I take delivery of the head.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
ardiesse
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by ardiesse »

Harv,

Will your cylinder block require sleeving to take three-and-a-quarter-bore pistons? Just thinking about fitting cylinder sleeves . . . press-fitting is normal practise; but I'm wondering what would happen if you put the sleeve in a bath of liquid nitrogen. Thinks . . . coefficient of expansion is about 1e-5 per degree C, so a 3.5" dia cylinder sleeve cooled to -200 would shrink about 0.007". If you worked quickly, I think a cylinder sleeve would slip into place. Unless the sleeve shatters.

Rob
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

I was (very) lucky - the 2nd EJ block does not need sleeving to take the 3.250" bore. For a while there I was toying with the idea of boring the block you dropped off :mrgreen: .

Didn't ask about cooling for the press-fit. I understand though that the stress is more from final fit tolerance (they are tight to stop the piston dragging the sleeve up and down) rather than the friction of press-fitting. The blocks tend to crack after running for a while, rather than during the fitting process. If that's right, once the super cooled sleeve warms up the stress builds and stays there.

It was interesting in that the machinist knew the minimum amounts of metal thickness he needed (I can't remember the numbers) around a sleeve to prevent cracking when inserting a sleeve. He is one of Warren Armour's nephews, and did quite a bit of calling around to confirm how far he could (reliably) push the wall thickness.

Interesting too how thin the deck is on a grey motor - the 1st EJ block test-bore wiped out all the cylinder walls, leave the deck easy to see.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Just when I thought I was starting to win....

Five cylinders have been bored out to 3.250". The last cylinder was bored out, and went into the honing machine... only for this goober to show up on the cylinder wall:

Cylinder goober.jpeg
Cylinder goober.jpeg (262.78 KiB) Viewed 748 times

Looks like an original casting defect (occlusion) of some sort. Cylinder will now need to be sleeved. Bugger.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

Let’s hope the sleeving process works okay on number six Harv. Now you’ll be tempted to sleeve the lot for a bit more??!


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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Nah, at this stage just the one sleeve. At 3.250”, I am pushing my luck sleeving it. The big sleeve diameter leaves precious little “meat” in the block to hold the sleeve. As Rob pointed out above, their is a chance of cracking the block as the sleeve is press fitted. Duncan Foster are considering machining up a “thinner than normal” sleeve to suit.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »




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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Block sleeving has been finished off by the machinist, and I have taken some tracings of the tops of the bores (onto greaseproof kitchen paper). Have sent the tracings off the the bloke reproducing the Repco head so he can blend the chambers in.

Main caps have been splayed, as they were slightly loose in the registers. Block was then tunnel bored. Cap tops are being milled down to that the Sonic main cap girdle will sit square - around 40 thou difference in the main cap heights.

Dropped off three cranks for them to start playing with. One is a good EJ crank (the one with large balancing drillings), one I had removed from a smokey runner block and packed in grease, and one was in the FB when I crapped out the thrust bearings a few years back. Suspect the latter is beyond recovery, but will get Duncan Foster to confirm. Aiming to have the cranks crack tested, ground for new bearings, and the snout drilled and tapped for a harmonic balancer installer. Dropped off the Ross balancer, and will get the crank snout turned down to suit the balancer (the factory Ross clearance is waaaaay too tight). Hopefully with the clearance eased up I should be able to use the installer rather than smacking the balancer on with a BFH. Dropped the Eagle Mitsubishi rods off for them to be faced (they are 8 thou too wide) and fitted up to the crank.

Made a trial run of the timing pointer. The Ross balancers have timing graduations on them, so with a simple pointer (a'la Chev) I can read the timing a lot easier than trying to sight down the side of the block to the flywheel. Made up a tab out of some ally bar, and did a test install on the FB (it also has a Ross balancer, which is where I learned that the balancer/crank clearance is too tight). The timing pointer uses two of the timing cover bolts to mount it. Looks like it will work OK, so will make another one up for the meth monster motor.

Optimized-Timing tab.JPG
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Optimized-Timing tab installed.JPG
Optimized-Timing tab installed.JPG (706.47 KiB) Viewed 690 times
Optimized-Timing tab closeup.JPG
Optimized-Timing tab closeup.JPG (537.79 KiB) Viewed 690 times
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Errol62 »

Sticking with the stock crank then no Vauxhall junk. Not going for one of Rob’s balancers?


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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by ardiesse »

Harv,

Test motor may not start is my diagnosis. Seems to be a major component missing.

Rob
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

Errol62 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:44 amSticking with the stock crank then no Vauxhall junk. Not going for one of Rob’s balancers?
Yep, stock crank with girdle. Vauxhall cranks are like rocking horse poo, and the blokes who know how to machine them even rarer. With the Norman I am limited to about 6,000rpm blower speed, so hoping to drive at about 1:1 and avoid the crank harmonic. I know of one Hambster which has pulled over a hundred passes with this theory, with no broken crank.Using a Toss balancer as it is easy to bolt up gilmer pulleys for the Norman and/or oil pump drives.
ardiesse wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:42 pmTest motor may not start is my diagnosis. Seems to be a major component missing.
Don’t remind me. The FB head was supposed to be ready last weekend, but now is not sealing. Valve seats need a light cut. Suspect that it was previously vacuum tested by the apprentice on a Friday afternoon.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by FJWALLY »

Hard to tell from that pic Harv but assume your running a twin V pulley off the crank is that right?
can you give me some details on what you've used there as I need to source my own solution for that one.
Could you run a twin V off the generator/alternator instead to drive the blower and use the generator adjustment as the tensioner at same time?
I'm putting one of those fancy Alternators that look like a Geni in mine for a bit more amperage for a couple other things required - would be a relatively short belt then and no extra load on crank or is my logic flawed in some way?
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Harv
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

G'day FJ Wally,

The photo above is of my FB sedan. It has a Ross Metal Jacket harmonic balancer, and nothing else on it. When I screw together the meth monster motor, it will run the same type of balancer. I will bolt a gilmer pulley to the snout of the Ross balancer.

Info on Norman belts, pulleys and tensioning attached below:
Delete.pdf
(507.04 KiB) Downloaded 32 times

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's meth monster project

Post by Harv »

The challenge for today is for me to get my head around the oiling in the grey motor… with a side excursion into lifters.

The grey has a pretty simple oiling system, described in the Workshop Manuals:

A helical gear type oil pump driven at half engine speed by the distributor drive shaft supplies oil to all working parts of the engine. The pump output pressure is regulated to a maximum of 40 Ibs. per sq. in. by a non-adjustable spring-loaded plunger type relief valve located in the pump body cover. The relief valve is designed so that when the valve opens, the oil passing the valve is directed back into the intake side of the pump. The capacity of the oil pump is well above the volume of oil that is required to adequately lubricate the working parts of the engine. The oiling system is designed to meter the flow of oil to the crankshaft, camshaft, connecting rods, overhead gear and timing gears. Oil is drawn from the oil pan through a gauze strainer and then delivered by the pump through a short copper pipe to drilled passages in the rear intermediate main bearing support web. From this point it is supplied to the rear intermediate main bearing, the rear intermediate camshaft bearing and the main oil gallery. The main oil gallery extends the full length of the cylinder block and distributes oil to the remaining three crankshaft and camshaft bearings. An asbestos packing ring type seal, together with a slinger and drain, prevents the leakage of lubricant at the rear main bearing. Recessed areas on the rear main bearing cap joint face provide a reduced area of contact between the cap and the crankcase, thereby causing a greater pressure to be exerted between the mating surfaces, and effecting a more efficient sealing joint. In addition, the recessed areas act as vents between the crankcase and the crankshaft oil slinger groove, equalizing the pressures acting in the crankcase and slinger groove; this prevents the crankcase pressure from restricting the oil return from the drain back hole in the cap. The crankshaft has drilled passages leading from the main bearing journals to the connecting rod journals; these drilled passages are reduced in diameter at the connecting rod journals, thus metering the oil flow to the connecting rod bearings. The piston pins are lubricated by splash feed through a hole in the top of the connecting rod. A groove machined approximately one third of the way around the intermediate camshaft journal, collects and distributes oil to a pipe connected to a fitting where the oil is metered and further directed to the rocker arm shaft assemblies. A bleeder hole in each rocker arm supplies oil for the lubrication of the valve stems and push rod sockets. Lubricant for the timing gears is supplied from a drilled passage between the oil gallery and the front main bearing. The oil is conducted from this point through a formed channel in the rear surface of the front engine plate to a metering nozzle extending out from the front of the plate. The oil stream from this nozzle is aimed to lubricate effectively the timing gears. A spring loaded synthetic rubber oil seal is pressed into the recessed opening in the timing gear cover to prevent oil leaks from around the hub of the harmonic balancer. Provision has been made for the fitting, as an accessory, of a by-pass type oil filter for operating conditions such as those involving sludging or dust.

My intention is to fit a dry sump to the meth monster motor. Why? There are some horsepower gains to be had (from less oil mist bouncing around in the crankcase)… but mainly because I have the bits, and like the idea of running one. The overall layout of the system is as per below:

dry sump plumbing.png
dry sump plumbing.png (20.6 KiB) Viewed 608 times

In simple terms, the GMH oil pump gets removed from the grey, and it’s discharge port blocked off inside the block. An external pump then takes suction from the sump, and a heap of fancy kit is used to clean, store and pressurise the oil before returning it to the motor. The diagram below gives you some idea of what this looks like – standard grey motor on the left, dry sump on the right:

Drysump oil flow to oil users.png
Drysump oil flow to oil users.png (593.78 KiB) Viewed 608 times

Note that the image on the right shows a shallower oil pan (that’s the plan), but shows a heap of “red” oil in it. In reality, the pan will be nearly dry, with the external oil pump scavenging as much as it can.

There are some bits of the lubrication process that do not change:
a) Oil is pressure fed to the crankshaft, camshaft and connecting rod bearings and rocker arm shaft assemblies.
b) Oil is dribbled over the valve stems and push rod sockets.
c) Oil is squirted onto the timing, distributor and cam gears.

One bit that worries me though is that the piston pins (con rod little ends) are lubricated by splash feed through a hole in the top of the connecting rod:

Little end lubrication.png
Little end lubrication.png (21.22 KiB) Viewed 608 times

With the dry sump aiming to cut down on oil mist, there is a chance that the little ends run dry. There are a couple of options to deal with this:
a) Do nothing, and prey there is still enough oil floating around the crankcase to lubricate the little ends,
b) Install oil squirters. These are small nozzles that tap off an oil gallery, and squirt a jet of oil up under the piston crown. Good for lubricating the little end, but also good for cooling piston crowns.
c) Drill the conrod lengthwise: through the big end bearing, up the length of the conrod, and into the little end bearing. This provides pressure feed to the little end, as per the picture at the bottom of this post (yeah, I know it's out of order... can't work out why).

I'm not too sure which of these three options to take. Methinks I need to ask the lumpy humpy crowd, and see if any of them have dealt with dry sumped little end oiling.

The second it that worries me a little is the lifter oiling. In the standard grey motor, oil flows from the rocker tips, down the pushrods and into the lifter cups. According to the diagrams above, the lifter cups have a drain hole, which allows oil to flow into the lifter bores (it squeezes out between the lifter and the bore wall). The oil then falls out the bottom of the lifter bore into the sump, splashing over the cam lobe faces as it falls. I've taken a good look at the lifters in the FB, and I'm pretty sure there is no oil drain hole in them. I suspect the GMH diagram above is a bit optimistic, and in reality the oil splashes out of the lifter cup and onto the lifter bore (rather than out a drain hole).

While I am thinking about lifters, in an ideal world, I could use standard lifters (and hence have standard lifter oiling). Of course, if you are as silly as I am then you gave away your last set of grey motor lifters to help a bloke out. I can try to hunt down some standard grey motor lifters…… or I can do something funky. Talking to the lumpy humpy crowd, &*#@ 302 lifters have the same bore as a grey motor lifter (0.874”). The pictures below show a 302 &*#@ lifter (Speed Pro part number SPAT2000) alongside a standard grey motor lifter.

302 versus grey motor lifter.JPG
302 versus grey motor lifter.JPG (463.67 KiB) Viewed 608 times

The 302 lifter has a removable seat (held in place with the circlip). The small metal disk is a check valve. The 302 Fords take pressurised oil from the lifer bore, feed it past the check valve, up the hollow pushrod and use that oil to lubricate the rockers. If I used the 302 &*#@ lifters, oil would fall down the pushrod and sit on the closed check valve... no different to a standard lifter. There is also the option to remove the check valve and have the oil drain out the oil hole to the lifter bore. Dimensionally, the 302 &*#@ lifters are different:

302 lifters.png
302 lifters.png (73.17 KiB) Viewed 608 times
Not a big drama if you are using custom pushrods. I suspect the pushrod end on the &*#@ is slightly different to the grey motor, as grey motor pushrods tend to foul on the 302 &*#@ lifter circlip. What gets me though is that the 302 &*#@ lifters are nearly double the weight of the grey motor lifters. Not a good thing for something that is reciprocating at a bazillion miles an hour. Methinks I'll stick to the standard grey lifters... just gotta find a set :( .

Cheers,
Harv
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327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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