HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Includes shock absorbers, springs and steering linkages.

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rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Craig - then I have fitted the HR ones then...hope I didn't fit them to the wrong sides - from memory, I don't think this is possible.... pix soon.

Just one question - how the heck does a wheel aligner adjust castor on these front ends? I understand that camber can be adjusted by adding shims... but castor? It has to be done at the upper arm mount to the tower somehow - if at all, surely...?

frats,
Rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Blacky »

Same as the camber - by adding or removing shims to move the end of the top wishbone forwards or backwards as required.
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Blacky, shows you what a "noob" I am with suspension and steering - never too old to learn. I'll take a closer look at it shortly and "see" if I can make any sense of it...... smoke and mirrors to me at present.

frats,
Rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Ok folk - went a bit overboard with the Box Brownie, I'm afraid... I'll keep pix to a handful for now... but I'm "armed" if any questions come up.
Still couldn't find any reason for the poor right hand turning circle.. it hits the stop on the lower r/h control arm when fully extended.
I have taken pix of most of the components... I'll post a couple with this - and add more as needed in response.

First lot are the left side.. both left and right hand lock..

Image

Image

frats,
Rosco
Last edited by rosco on Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Right side..

I probably need to get some day time shots with the door up - you'll get a better view of the two hubs from an in-front view.

Image

Second pic shows the drag link almost against the sump on full rh lock..

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Image

Image

Last three show the shims as fitted to the upper control arm on the tower.

Image

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Image

Sorry about the mess everything is in... still "wearing" a lot of SA and parts of Vic under there..

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Rosco, I have some turn tables that you could use to measure your toe out on turns. I'm heading to Melbourne in a week or so and could meet you somewhere on the east side if that suits. Either that or you could use a large protractor and some chalk and go nuts on your garage floor measuring. I think that would be easiest way to sort this.

I do also see something odd in your pictures. The tie rod ends look to be screwed in a different amount to each side. I wondering if the total lengths of the HD HR drag link from the pitman arm point is different to a FB EK or could it be that you have the correct amount of toe in but the steering box isn't centred and you are bottoming out in the box on right hand turns. That would explain the drag link being pulled/pushed across and hitting the sump in one direction only.
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thank you Craig,
I hadn't noticed the difference in tie rod end adjustment - I am pretty sure that the right hand lock has the steering arm pushing right up hard on the stop of the lower control arm.

I'll remove the steering wheel and note the number of turns each side from straight ahead. It won't be until I pull of the pitman arm that I can see if the box reaches the end of its limit on right turn.

As mentioned, this box is coming out for a recondition - getting the front end sorted with new pivot pins, tie-rod ends and balls joints etc will throw everything out when I put it back together. I'm pretty determined to get this fixed before it goes back on the road - something I should have done the first time, but ran out of available workshop time.

For now, I'll take a rain check on your kind offer of the turntables... but will most certainly look forward to borrowing them when I come to setting it up before the alignment is done..

Thanks again,

frats,
Rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Ok. just to add a little more to this thread (pun intended) - purchased replacement lower control arm pivot kits from Rares.
With club discount - the two kits came to $148.50. Kit part number is 7429141 "Pivot pin kit - EH ute, HD HR .004 O/S".

The chap told me that only the outer thread of the bushes are .004" OS.. all threads on the pins are standard size - Rares do not supply any oversize for the pin thread.

Won't get to pull the old thing apart until September - I'll start work in earnest on it somewhere around then.

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

"outer thread of the bushes are .004" OS"
That doesn't sound right Rosco. If its the outer thread of the shaft they would have to service undersize bushes. The good book quotes that the ".004" OS shaft refers to the inner thread of the shaft"
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Hmmmm - I can't put any finality to this. I understand what you are suggesting - that by having the control arm pin shaft 0.004" O/S - the inner thread of the bushes which screw onto them would need to be 004 U/S.... I was told that these are both stock.
I was told that the outer thread of the bushes - which screw into the control arms (wishbones) are .004" O/S. I expect this is to account for wear when the original ones were fitted and are removed.

I'm not so sure that the chap on the other side of the counter was speaking with any authority... but the package and parts list on line both only make reference to .004" O/S... it does not specify as to what part or thread this O/S actually is...

(edit, before I post a reply this time) - ok, I've just opened the supplied kit.. and fitted a new battery to my digital calipers....

Here goes...

Outer thread diameter of bush - (screws into control arm, aka - wishbone) - at maximum thread height - 1.0275".
As best I can measure - minimum (base) of thread in above - 1.0095"'
Thread depth - 0.018"

Control shaft pin thread into cross-member, outer diameter thread size - 0.840" (one end)
Inner thread size of above - 0.820"

As above, other end - outer diameter - 0.821"
Inner thread diameter - 0.801"

I would expect that the depth of the thread in both is then 0.020"

Thread on control shaft pin where bush screws onto - maximum diameter - 0.7875" (both ends within 0.001")

Thread minimum (depth of thread) for above - 0.695" (I couldn't get my calipers into the thread - but this would be very close to the measurement - done by eye and caliper faces under magnifying light).

Thread depth - 0.61625" (again, this is not exact.. could be up to 0.005" out - taken by educated eye measurement using calipers).

Inner thread of Bush, with calipers at resting on minimum diameter - 0.737"

i can't measure what the inner thread diameter is of the bush, I don't have equipment which will fit inside the internal thread of the bush.

The fitting of the bushes on the control arm pin is slightly "loose" - you can "just" rock them side to side by feel... they are not a tight, smooth, rotating fit... I am guessing that under the compression of the springs plus when greased up - this clearance has been engineered for purpose....?

I further note with the above - that it is obvious the smaller end of the shaft goes through one face and then continues to pass through to the other end - I will measure both pins when they come out.
I further expect that the shaft is removed from the front (think we have made mention of this in an earlier post above).

If this is the case - the smaller end goes in through the front of the cross member and continues along until it "finds" the thread at the rear.
At the same time - the larger thread on the front should engage.
Turning them in to the specified distance using a tool made for purpose - should locate them... hopefully, under the torque as specified... I don't know where we go if I can't "torque them up".

I'll have to find my HR factory manual and see if the tech specs are given for the above... I am still unaware of which part is 0.004" O/S.

I asked about replacement control arms today (wishbones)... no such listing at Rare's.. but he suggested a number of other suspension places to try and source some..... earliest model currently being produced is VB Commodore.
They'll have to tool this up one day - sooner or later, cars will not make roadworthies.. and that will be bad business for companies such as Rares... they really need to keep us on the road..... my thoughts...

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Ok Rosco apologies for my misunderstanding. I thought you meant the outer thread of the pin/shaft being OS rather than the bush.
Can I suggest when you get to it, trial fit a new bush on the old pin before removing it. You may not have to replace the shaft/pin. I know these can be really hard to get out and would hate for you to have to condemn the whole cross member if you cant get OS shafts.
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks, Craig - yes, I'm not keen on pulling those shafts out.
Les McVeigh of Rare Spares, back in 1982 when I took the cross-member to them in Brunswick to have it modified for an EK - told me when I picked it up that the shafts were worn way back then... he told me he had seen worse, but they were worn none-the-less.
We'll know an awful lot more when I get the springs out and can play around with how the control arms run on their threads - I'm fully expecting the lower front right to be totally shot by now.. it "oozes" grease when I lube it... can't get any pressure build up even with a small grease gun... even though I push the seal up against the bush and the other end is well seated well over the pin thread.... we'll see, watch this space..

It will be a slow process - I would expect to have it apart for weeks, not hours. As mentioned, I want this front end and steering put right this time - the old bus is not needed for anything now other than club runs and an occasional wedding. It will never tow again - the tow bar being left there for emergencies and as a bit more rear end protection.

So - I will probably now have it off the road again until the end of the year... but, by then - the front end should be right and the steering box should be reconditioned and re-fitted... working on that at present with Roger H....

The chap at Rares (Bayswater) didn't really have any suggestions on how to remove and re-fit the pins.... I suggested heat - but he baulked at that.... I suggested the ground down two locking nut option and that didn't really spark any interest either.
I'll be asking a lot of questions in this thread when I come to these bits... and will be posting up lots of pix and measurements for comment.

Of course - I could take the easy out and simply take it to a front end specialist - but, my dislike for any work done by almost every so called "automotive professional" pretty much equals my dislike for taking international marketing calls on the telephone.

I can't tell you how many times I've had shonky work done by these morons - and the lame excuses they come up with as to why something wasn't done when it should have been... and vice versa.... There must have been a book published on "best answers to defend shonky work" - most are well versed and qualified to practice using it.

I totally detest "get rich quick" merchants - one did the head on this motor - by golly, VCAT came close to getting drawn into that saga... Moron ended up well out of pocket (so he claims) for spending "days" on it... for no outcome - then tried to charge me for another head as well without making any contact or approval for it... I ended up with "a" reconditioned head - but as far as I know, he is still the owner of the so called "owes me a month of Sundays" deposited head without payment..... other than the original agreed price for reconditioning.

Whether I got my original head back is beyond me.. one of the rare times I have not secretly marked something for repair. So, maybe it was just a spin to extract more funds for his coffers.. I'll never know - he didn't kick up too much of a fuss when I told him I didn't have any more money... and didn't make contact afterwards for me to get "my" head back....lesson learned.

I once had a Celica steel case gearbox "dismantled, inspected, de-glazed, new bearings fitted and re-assembled" - at a set price - the secret marks I put on it were still sealed intact - proving that the box had not been taken fully apart... unless there is a way of extracting the entire gear cluster, mainshaft and all the associated bearings by only removing the bell-housing and front bearing retainer - three times, I went to pick it up - and three times, my marks on the side-plate and rear extension were still there - along with the original rear seal.... I was "steamed" on the second visit - absolutely livid on the third - the "boss" was about to read the riot act to me and asked me why I was so "cock-sure" that the work hadn't been done.... even though he had just told me that he "personally" watched the mechanic do the work.... I showed him the marks and he handed me back the box - no charge.... I should have taken that further - but didn't.

Now, you might see why I don't trust these people.... I take lots and lots and lots of pix these days.. I mark nearly everything on this old bus with a secret identification number and photograph each component... crazy? - you bet.... but for a reason, Craig..

I don't mind paying for quality work - but much prefer to do it myself if I can - and usually end up with a better result plus some "bonus" tools and equipment... and the peace of mind that I know what has been done and also if something I did or fitted wasn't absolutely right - I'd be the first to know about it if it were to go pear-shaped... did a lot of this in my youth - don't take the chance these days..

There have been a few exceptions - J McNamara was one... great work, amazing collection of "stuff" laying about everywhere was a real concern - but the end result was exceptional. I'm pretty confident Roger H will do likewise with the steering box - needle rollers into the sector shaft housing is just one of the things he does which I'm really looking forward to.

Speaking of which - he tells me some of the play may exist where the column is riveted to the body - I'd never have come up with thinking on that... spline wear and a number of other things will be corrected during the reconditioning.... maybe, for once - I'll get this dear old thing to steer and track well the way it should have for the past 44 years I've driven it....

He further tells me that wide wheels and tyres are the real killer for these old types of steering boxes... suggested I inflate to 40 psi...
I won't ever wear a set of tyres out before they expire to time.. so, I'm pretty confident pumping them up and getting a little bit more wear in the centre of the tread isn't going to dramatically reduce any mileage I do within that time frame.... it's been years and years since I actually wore tyres out with this old girl..... six years is probably the acceptable life span for modern tyres... I won't do 40,000 miles in 6 years... might do 4,000 if the nationals aren't all long trips in that time....

Ok - typed too much - thanks for your reply - sorry to fill your head with useless trivia again...

frats,
Rosco
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Errol62
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Errol62 »

Rosco
Seems to me you should be able to gauge whether the o/s bushes are required when you remove the old ones by simply refitting them and attempting to retorque.

Cracking of the outer steering tube is sometimes evident at the rivet holes due to flexing and these can of course be welded up and re riveted as I'm sure your man will do. The previously mentioned bracing bracket mod will prevent future occurrence.

The extra strain caused to steering gear is one of the reasons why the rego authorities limit increase in track to 25mm greater than stock as this increases scrub radius and makes the steering heavier. Anything that makes the steering heavier obviously places more load on the box. If the car has done a lot of miles on rough roads as many did the worm gear gets worn at centre. Attempts to adjust out the wear cause the gear to bind off centre.
You probably know all this but I can't help myself. I drove my EK 215 around the clock on SA country roads back in the day, often at sustained speeds of 80 mph. Plenty of paddock bashing too as she was my work car as a land surveyor. I still have the original steering box but think I will bite the bullet and get a full recon for the panel van even though I have four or so of them lying around.

Cheers
Clay


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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Rosco I'm glad to hear Jack did a good job on your diff. I'm lacking a dummy arbour and pinion so I'll be heading back to him next year before the Perth Nats. I'm taking no chance's on that run!
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Clay,
yes, this dear old thing has 230 something thousand on the clock with the original box. I don't believe I ever treated it harshly, but I do know it was in a pretty ordinary prang where the front right was stoved in back in the late '60's... albeit at a relatively slow speed being in the city.
I was told by the person who sold it to me that "there is something wrong with the steering, you might like to get it fixed". At 17 years old, and earning about $24 a week back then - I put up with it and learned to drive with the "slop" in it. Ten years later, I replaced the entire set of half sockets and springs in the draglink assembly and a new idler arm - didn't fix the "wander" bit - but made the steering more positive.
When the HR front end and draglink assembly went in - it was more rigid again - but the box has always had more float than it probalby did when new...
After 44 years, I'll have it reconditioned... if I get another 44 years out of it (sic) - I'll be more than happy...... I'll be 105 by then - might need power steering as well....

Craig, yes - Jack & Jeff did a good job - it's been silent since day one. A little bit of spider gear noise when turned by hand - but on the road, it's been beaut. I still have some noise in the back when it warms up - but I believe that to be wheel bearing or uni. The pitch of the noise doesn't change with speed, load or over-run...only the volume as it gets warmer. I don't believe it's a pinion bearing (they were re-placed) and now believe I may have been sold Chinese rear axle bearings when I replaced them a few years back. I am interested to learn how Blacky goes with his replacements - and what brand they were, useless trying to see what the demolished one was - there's not enough of anything left to find manufacturer's marks - what a mess!... lucky, lucky, lucky... that vehicle must have a powerful sound system - and they weren't "mucking around" by the distances they traveled in the time it took them.....

Compared to a modern vehicle, with my very poor hearing (and my wife's not much better) - the din this car produces on the road with wind and tyre noise coming through the unsound-proofed panels etc...I can't "pinpoint" exactly where this new noise is coming from - it's not loud enough to be of concern... but I want to fix whatever is causing it. We'll start with the rear axle bearing and uni-joints - and work from there..

Please let me know how you go with your diff - it's a strange place to visit - going through the short little door next to the main door and beyond is worth every penny of fuel it costs to get there..... not to mention looking around for the car outside when you press the big button - and a car horn goes off. Inside, I could see the result (and remnants) of decades of work inside - scattered around the place like chook scratchings in a hen-house... mounds and mounds of them - but their work is really top notch... thanks for putting me onto them.

frats,
Rosco
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