HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Includes shock absorbers, springs and steering linkages.

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rosco
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HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Ok folk,
apologies to anyone who was reading my post in an existing thread - I have decided to start this one and have copied/pasted that post to here.

Almost a year has passed since I posted on another thread about my poor turning circle and I'm determined to get this front end/steering sorted for once and for all...

We hit water on the Hume coming back from Hervey Bay last year and my steering now drifts considerably on a windy day.

The steering box has always had a lot of "play" in it since I took ownership of it some 44 years back. No amount of adjustment was able to make anything better - and I have been very remiss not to have had the steering box reconditioned.

I now intent to have it reconditioned by "Holden Restoman" - with needle rollers fitted on the pitman arm - as he does.

This dear old car has always had "wandering" steering - it was indeed worse with the original tube drag link assembly but became an awful lot better after fitting the HD disc front end with ball joint link rods - but in cross-winds, it would still drift with a fair bit of "play" in the steering box.

After the water episode on the Hume, I am now going to re-visit the front end after putting up with the terrible turning circle for some years.

Under heavy braking - there always has been a "scrape" sound from one of the control arms... I know it to be either lower control arm - for the upper assemblies were replaced and the "scrape" continued.

When Rares (then at Brunswick, Les McVeigh) modified my cross-meber for the EK - he told me one of the pivots was worn.. but he had seen much worse. The vehicle has now done approximately 90,000 miles on those worn pivots and I note they are now available from Rares.

I now believe this pivot has worn sufficiently to have become part of the steering issue - along with the steering box.

When greasing the front, I have noted for some time now that the lower control arm front inner bush oozes grease without any pressure build up - I suspect that the pin is now worn well beyond being serviceable.

I have now found that Rares can supply 004" OS lower pivot pins, together with replacement bushes and seals. Whether the pins are 004" OS or the bushes are (I suspect) is yet to be determined.
Further, they can supply a new drag link member with pressed ball joints and also replacement ball joint tie rod end rods as well.

Back in 1983, at age 28 - I did not have the mechanical skills, tools or workshop to perform an appropriate re-build - and, as it was then our only car - was pressed for time to get the old bus back on the road with all new running gear and front end.

This time however - I will strip the front end and replace anything which is even remotely worn.

Perhaps, this time I'll get the turning circle to where it should be.

When I fitted the 14" Dragway wheels - the run to Hervey Bay was simply enjoyable. For the entire trip up, and as far back as Sydney - there weren't any crosswinds.. and the car tracked beautifully... I could take my eyes off the road for a short look at the scenery and the car would still be where I left it when looking away - this was a first for me when driving the dear old thing.
When we hit water on the Hume - it has not been the same since.

I know the steering and suspension can be restored - and am determined to achieve this, now having been "spoiled" to what the vehicle can enjoy.

I would appreciate comment on fitting the new lower pivot pins... I do understand that they are "screwed" out to remove them. I am yet to determine how I am going to do this - and how to fit the replacements.

Further, what is the safest/best/most appropriate method to remove the springs? - I made up a threaded rod last time with a slight bend in it.. and simply wound down nuts on washers at both ends to bring the steering knuckle arm up into the upper ball joint where I could fit the nut to its thread.

thank you in anticipation of all replies...

frats,
Rosco
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Errol62
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Errol62 »

Hi Rosco
There are or were pairs of spring compression clamps available but I rate your threaded rod through the shock mounts pretty safe.

Aside from renewing all worn components as available there is a simple modification I have seen which has potential to eliminate considerable slop.

A bracket which braces the top of the steering box to the inner guard is fitted. These can be purchased on line or made up from 3mm plate. I have not tried this yet but o am told it can make quite a difference depending of course on how much play there is due to this source in the first place. This is easy to observe by torquing the steering wheel left and right while looking at the top of the box.

Of course increasing caster will also help her track straight at speed but unfortunately make the steering even heavier.

Good luck in your quest for un-wavering steering.

Cheers
Clay


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Harv
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Harv »

rosco wrote:Further, what is the safest/best/most appropriate method to remove the springs? - I made up a threaded rod last time with a slight bend in it.. and simply wound down nuts on washers at both ends to bring the steering knuckle arm up into the upper ball joint where I could fit the nut to its thread.
G'day Rosco,

Dad started his apprenticeship back when EH's were new. When I suggested using threaded rods to compress springs a few years back, he was none too impressed with me. A good method if you have a quality spring compressor... not so good if you get an el-cheapo with poor threads. He still had an el-cheapo lying around that had stripped out.

The method he showed me uses a hydraulic floor jack. The floor jack goes under the lower control arm. A length of chain is put under the floor jack, and looped over the upper control arm before being joined with a D-shackle. As the floor jack is raised, the two control arms are squeezed together. The method can be used for both installation and removal, and both with the crossmember in the car or on the floor.

Cheers,
Harv
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rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks fella's - I had heard of the steering box bracket - and plan in incorporating it when I re-fit the reconditioned box at a later date.

As for releasing/compressing the front tower springs - yes, I was extremely wary of it letting go when I did it.
I simply made up a bent rod by opening out a large U bolt..... which came from a rear axle mount spring.

I had heard of using a hydraulic jack under the lower wishbone (control arm) and slowly using the jack to raise the arm until the knuckle could be fitted through the upper ball joint.

I do very much like and applaud the use of a safety chain and D shackle - I had not considered this - but will take advantage of the inclusion.. thank you heaps for this.

Any advise on removing the lower control arm pins?.... I have never done this.
My current thought process involves employing two nuts and locking them to each other - then turn the combined nut assembly anti-clockwise to unscrew the control arm pin from the crossmember - is this best practice?

I expect these withdraw from the front?.

I don't know what to look for in the crossmember once these have been removed - I expect there will most likely be some wear on the front and rear face where these pins go through - if so, can anything be done to refurbish the holes.... I am very much hoping that it is only the pins/bushes which are worn.
I do also appreciate that there may be some wear in the bush holes of the control arms - finding replacements might now be difficult?

Thank you both Clay and Harv for you fast and factual response - I won't get to attack these issues until we come back from up north - but will keep in constant touch with the forum for posts.

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Rosco the pivot pins are serviced as standard or OS on their outside diameter thread that screws into the front end. This is much the same as the pivot bush in the control arm. You could do the double nut thing. I have the service tool if you need it and can post. I have in the past just used two old bushes cut back and screwed and locked on together. This is much the same as the service tool anyway. The process is remove the pin, replace with standard size pin and tension up. If you cant achieve the tension then it should be replaced with an oversize one. Don't go nuts on this as you could end up stuffing the front end. From memory there should be a set protrusion dimension of the pin once tensioned. Obviously if it screws in too deep then you will need an OS pin. I don't recommend welding them in place either.
rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Craig,
I'll need to determine if I need the OS pin prior to purchasing it.... at $87 each, throwing away $174 on standard sized ones because they won't torque up would be silly. I guess, the OS .004" supplied ones are purpose designed as a replacement of the originals...
I expect I can measure the extracted pins and bores to determine the best option?

As for the service tool - I'll probably grind down the removed bushes to a pair of locking nuts - as you suggest. If that doesn't work - I'll go to Coventry Bolts and get something from them... failing this, I'll email you to make arrangements for that tool... thank you for offering.

If I find that the wishbones (control arms) are worn beyond servicability, I don't know if anyone stocks replacements... I don't like the idea of tag welding them to the arms. Until I get all four off, I won't know - so that part of the refurb hangs in the lurch for now.

Springs - there are people in this forum who detest our cars riding at "normal" height - each to our own, I guess.
I have never liked my old bus riding low - mistakingly, I fitted the HR springs when I did the conversion. I probably should have gone with the originals. There is far more weight in front fenders and bumpers etc in an EK than a HR... I am yet to check, but I believe the HR springs are considerably shorter than the originals. The ride has lost that comfortable "floating" feeling over bumps - it has felt far too stiff since the HR front end went in. I do have Koni adjustable shockers - I did not change their settings from the original front end to the HR - I believe the shorter HR springs responsible for this loss.
I would like to achieve a front ride height perhaps 1" lower than original - I believe it currently sits 2" lower.... guessing - again, the good book will give me specs.

I don't know what springs others have used - but note that just about every FB or EK fitted with a HR front end has most likely done as I have - and used the HR springs... and they all seem to sit low at the front.

Now is probably the time to get the old dear back up off her knees. Any suggestions on replacement springs to achieve a 1" drop from original?

Ok - that'll probably do for today. The old dear is now up on blocks with the wheels removed - I'll take some pix with my box brownie showing the suspension on full lock each side - there might be something obvious which will reveal why I have such a terrible turning circle.

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Roscoe I'd go with standard springs but use drop spindles if you can get them for the HR front end. I think CRS was doing them for a while????
I prefer going that way so you retain sufficient bump clearance and good ride but get a little better handling being lower. Changing spring heights can also effect the bump steer in the front end due to the unequal wishbone lengths (changes in camber angle throughout suspension travel).
rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Craig,
maybe there is some justified reason for using the HR springs then - not sure I'll go with drop spindles though.
The HR springs should afford sufficient suspension travel - it's just that the extra weight of our old buses on them makes them drop a bit.

I was leaning towards compensating for this by springs to suit - i.e. - having the HR front end sit at its own kerb height with the additional weight of our model on it.... think that makes sense?
Or, to put it another way - find out what the control arm ride height of the crossmember was with a HR on it - and fit springs so that the same height is achieved with an EK on it.... that might explain my intention a little clearer?

frats,
Rosco
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Errol62
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Errol62 »

Hrs were 1178 to 1298 kg for s power glide premier wagon. Pretty similar to FB EK I would have thought.

I have run standard HR springs for many miles and they didn't appear any lower than standard EK ride height. Later I went briefly to a heavier lowered spring which was far too harsh and then back to the HR springs with 35mm of so lopped off to lower the tide height 2". The ride was comfortable but admittedly a compromise. Cornering was very good with 25mm front sway bar, sedan springs and 1" lowering blocks rear. Battery relocated to driver side boot behind the rear wheel.


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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Errol62 »

HRs also have the motor mounted considerably further forward in relation to front wheels putting more weight on the front wheels. Possibly many conversions to HR front have already had a spring chop.


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rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks Errol,
hadn't considered that the front end I obtained may have already had a "cut" job done to it... didn't measure anything back in those days - naive as I was... just accepted almost everything people told me about what I was buying.

I'll look at the spring lengths when they come out. I have the HD/HR factory manual - it should give me the relaxed length.

I'm hoping these come up a bit short - and I'll then purchase some std replacements.

As Craig states - it's a far better option to go with what they were designed for - you get issues when you mess around with changes.
The General employed some very highly paid engineers back then - I'd be more inclined to go with what the proving ground results were, rather than any attempt I make at setting the old bus up for appearances.

Thanks again Errol,

frats,
Rosco
rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Ok Craig,
had a bit of a look again at it tonight before coming in for dinner (late). No pix (tomorrow).
As far as I can determine, the steering arms on both sides are hitting the stops on the rear of the lower control arms (wishbones).
I have the old bus up on blocks with the wheels off at present - don't know if the arms will hit the stops with the control arms at ride height.
Steering wheel seems to have more turn left in it when the steering arms have made contact with the stops - so, I guess we can probably assume that it's not the box which has reached its limit for turning.

Steering has always been very, very heavy with radial tyres on it. Wasn't so bad on little 640 x 13 cross plies - but since fitting 175 13 radials back in the mid '70's - steering has been heavy.

The old chap who bought this car new had a prang in it in Russel St and Flinders - didn't give way to the right and I believe the steering box may have been damaged way back then.

I'll have the box reconditioned by Roger H and hopefully, it will be a lot lighter and more precise (less "float" at centre).
The front end simply has to be done - and I'll replace whatever is needed to get it right this time.

Pix tomorrow...

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Yep Rosco, the steering arms should always bottom out before the steering box does. If you have issues with one being closer than the other then I would look t making sure the steering box is centred i.e. drop the drag link and check the number of turns lock to lock then centre the box. Your wheel should be straight ahead and the pitman arm should be approx. 89 degrees. There should also be a stamped line on the end of the steering shaft under the horn cap. It should be pointing upwards. Most wheel aligners remove and refit the steering wheel during the process. This is incorrect. The straight ahead position should be achieved by adjusting the tie rods only as the steering box has a manufactured high spot on the gearing which is used to prevent straight ahead wander. If yours is all ok you may have a bent steering arm.

Wider tyres or indeed a change in profile height has a huge impact on steering geometry. Without writing a heap, the changes effect scrub radius and centre point steering which ultimately makes the steering heavier and effects tyre wear.
steering_axis.gif
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rosco
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by rosco »

Thanks again, Craig - my learning curve has started to rise again.
The alignment was done in 1983 by Computalign in Nunawading. I have absolutely no idea what the chap did to set it up - but I did have to walk to a bolt supplier to get some longer bolts for the added shim pack to be fitted.
I suppose I was just happy at the time that it was "better" after he aligned it - compared to my very crude adjustment using a metal tape measure.
I am now doubting that he got it right - and, the car has not had an alignment done since - through three sets of tyres.
They all wore pretty much evenly - down to the condemning marks.... this suggested to me that it was within where it should have been.

We'll know more about this saga as the refurb goes on.

I was looking at the steering arms tonight - I don't know which ones I used back in '83. I don't know if FB/EK ones would have fitted to the HR knuckles - I suspect that I used HR ones - it came complete..... along with a useless Girling booster which was stuffed when I got it.
Found out the hard way that it was a bit silly to unscrew the back plate - "boom" - right in the mouche.... never made that mistake again, trust me.....

Thanks again - I fire up some pix tomorrow - hopefully someone will "see" something...

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: HD/HR disc front end - re-conditioning.

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Rosco. Steering arms for FB/EK are integral to the king pin. HD HR are bolt on.
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