Seagull Grey EK 2106

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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Yeh I've always wondered about that change. I'm guessing I'm in the land of scientific discovery at the moment! :eugeek:
rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Ok, Craig - just thought I'd bounce that lot off you anyway....never know, sometimes you doubt your own work once it's all back together - nice to learn you checked it all whilst going through the build.

Guess we'll find out after Marlo...

Here's hoping the run with the 8 ply's ticks that box as being finished..

Hope you have a safe run, don't forget to take the time to smell the roses - you can do the "other" stuff at home..

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Well at last we have had some success....touch wood. Just finished our little jaunt to Marlo and after a faultless trip we decided a detour Buchan from Orbost then on to home. All in all I think there were a few small drops of oil on the lower wishbone and drag link. It's a vast improvement. Wondering now if the oil groove in the cam bearing journal had been recut the full diameter when the cam was reground. Its unlikely but this would explain the excess oil to the top. Disappointing that I missed it if it was. Now have to work a way how to check it without pulling the cam.
Anyway it was great trip and the car pulled well throughout the trip from Orbost following the Snowy River up to Buchan. Just love how it held top gear all the way and was unfussed down to 20mph. A very windy and hilly drive about 60km for that leg which took about an hour. Only thing we saw was an EJ sedan going the other was, 1 tiger snake on the road, and about a dozen kangaroos on the side of the road as we skirted the Snowy River National Park.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Todays fix - a really annoying rattle in the speedo head.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

This week the radiator gets a birthday. Luck is on my side and the old honeycomb core has survived with only needing a some leak repairs and rodding through. I also ended up fitting an oxygen sensor bung in the engine pipe for some testing and mixture setting as I have some combustion roughness occurring around 2800 Rpm. Mixture is ok so I've knocked a few degrees out of the timing to see how that goes. I was concerned I was running too lean and worried about burning a valve or worse especially with towing. I'm now thinking I am bordering on detonation and too high cylinder pressure rises at that RPM. I may need to eventually recurve the dissy slightly.
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rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Radiator looks schmick, Craig - nice work.
Ok, detonation. I did a bit of research into this when leaded petrol was becoming unavailable.
You are absolutely correct in fear of burning valves - the exhaust valve is the main subject as the inlet one gets plenty of cool air at all times it is open.

The exhaust valve would ordinarily not give too much issue with lack of lead, but it will get eaten away in time by lack of the added lubricant which lead was.
So too, will the valve seats and to a lesser extent - the guides.

I do know there are many on this forum who do not like adding an upper cylinder lubricant like Flashlube - but it most certainly serves to extend the life of the upper cylinder, exhaust valves and guides.
The biggest mistake most make with it is to over-dose.... it is a simple ration - 1 ml per litre, 10 mls per 10 litres etc etc etc....

You now have a conundrum - as you are also towing.

Not many are aware of a matter called "EGT's" pertaining to this forum - it is more relevant in 4WD circles and diesel engines - more particularly turbo boosted engines which have been "chipped".....

With my little Hilux, when I had it (great little truck, by the way) - I fitted a TRD (Toyota Racing and Development) chip - the forum were able to get into the factory through the back door and managed to get these out from Germany for us.
It was an exceptional chip - five settings, and all of them (or none) could be set "on the fly" (in running).

I had grave concerns with EGT's - and rightly so. I imported and installed a Laboratory Grade instrument into the exhaust manifold downstream (post turbo).
The EGT's were alarming (excuse pun, as I also had a piezo alarm fitted when a pre-set temperature was reached).

I believe I can be of some assistance to you here, if you are unaware of when EGT's are at their highest - and it is entirely in the opposite direction to what might be perceived....

EGT's are at their very highest at maximum load under low rpm's...... there simply isn't the airflow through the top of the motor to afford sufficient cooling.

Why I am mentioning all of this (hoping to afford the link to ignition issues) - is that our engines were designed for a proportion of lead in the fuel.... admittedly, the octane rating of ULP these days is way above that of the old "regular" - and probably in a similar ball-park to the then "super".
But, it does not contain lead and as a result - there is no build up of lead on the surfaces which it used to protect.
EGT's are much higher with unleaded fuel - and, I believe you can now appreciate why I suggest concern should be noted on using ULP when towing.
Sustained long hauling up long grades in a higher gear at low rpms is at severe detriment to the top end of the motor.
I would suggest, a downshift employing higher rpm's with a much greater airflow be a much more suitable option than "lugging" the motor up a grade in a higher gear (even though it might be able to just sustain the demand).

Our old friend detonation is more prevalent with ULP than it was with leaded petrol (a well known "anti-knock" additive) - but, ULP responds better/more efficiently when advanced somewhat..... hence the conundrum.

I do appreciate you have instruments which afford you creditable monitoring of inputs to your engine... and am comforted somewhat that you are fully aware of the consequences of running too advanced.

My suggestion, would be to contact Richard - Blue Haze. As you very well know, "the Project" runs a highly sophisticated induction system with programmable ECU parameters..... I am firmly of the opinion that Richard will be able to map something out for you and download it from his ECU - with this, you can take note of what the resultant differing mixture and ignition settings suggest.

As for any parameters for EGT's from a petrol motor - I am confident that a search in google will reveal many posts on the subject.

The old approach of looking at the exhaust pipe after a long run to indicate the combustion of the engine is no longer available to us. At best, ULP results in a dirty brown coating.
Previously, a light grey indicated the ignition and mixture/jets were set correctly..... black indicated rich, whilst white was a warning sign of heat/lean mix/too advanced.
Again, this was at a time when lead was added to fuel...... probably none of it relevant to today.

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Thanks Rosco. Yep I'm good with EGT's, many years of driving trucks in the Army has given me a good insight. I'm differing in thought as EGT's are not in the same vain i.e. comparing NA to turbo'd diesels. Low RPM and high boost with high cylinder pressures is as you would expect with the later. This would differ heaps with a NA petrol with EGT's rising slowly to around peak torque area I'm thinking.

Valve seat recession I keep an eye out with more than regular valve clearance checks. So far no issues yet.

With the dissy recurve I have been looking for some time for a reasonably priced dissy test bench. No luck with that so I'm going to make my own. It'll get some use with the FB and the boat as well as they both exhibit the same combustion harshness issues. Rebores and head shaving as has been done to all my engines obviously induces this problem with the slight rise in compression.
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

That's comforting to learn, Craig - both in your regard, and in mine.
I have no equipment which can measure EGT's in my Holden engine - I have had concerns with it for many years, once I became aware of those read-outs I was getting with the Hilux.

If EGT's in a petrol NA motor rise slowly, I have nothing to concern myself with - I do not "lug" my motor at any time, although with 14" wheels and the 3:08 diff - it most certainly demands more input on the open road in moderate climbs.

I tend to drive on the vacuum gauge a lot - this is my "yardstick" for percentage of power..... as it affords a relatively constant indication over differing rpm's, the "trick" to it is to learn where that power valve opens - and aim to avoid running at a lower vacuum..... albeit a bit "lean" to some extent.

I'm keen to watch your progression through a dizzy re-map - I'd encourage you to post here what you glean from the encounter.

frats,
Rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

rosco wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:48 am If EGT's in a petrol NA motor rise slowly, I have nothing to concern myself with
Don't hold me to that Rosco, as I said "In my thinking" I don't have any hard evidence from testing, others maybe able to confirm or deny my thoughts.

Setting up a fuel ratio meter was the best tool so far for both cars. I'm yet to rework the boat exhaust for the same testing. Water and oxygen sensors don't mix so I'm looking at doing a jacketed engine pipe. It's surprising to learn how good the old Stromberg does at controlling mixtures. Re the power valve opening point I would get a small hand pump (mighty vac type) and test the release of the piston at whatever reading you get. That could be marked on your gauge at the relative vacuum reading.
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Thanks again, Craig - had another "think" on EGT's for NA'd petrol motors - they shouldn't be a concern.
As you well know, modern diesel motors are common rail injection...... as opposed to a NA petrol motor - the injection duration of a diesel under common rail pressures can be quite long... and this is most likely the source of high EGT's.... the injector continues to pump as the piston goes down - adding to the "burn" and increasing the torque output of the motor.

Our NA motors can't do this - the inlet valve closes off well before TDC and the "charge" is a one-shot.....
Lower rpm's suggest smaller intake capability - so, my concerns with EGT's from an internal regard are probably non-founded.

They continue to suggest concern with exhaust valves and the crown of the piston etc.... but, unlike our diesel friend - this would be almost entirely related to a "lean" burn.... damage to the piston crown more related to pre-ignition....

These are my "thoughts" on the matter.

As for the "dropping" of the power jet - I can "feel" it when it comes in.... the "note" in the exhaust changes sufficiently and I also used to be able to detect the sound through the carburettor when I had a "sports" air cleaner.... that sound went from a "dry" wisping to a "wet" flooding sound..... I could actually hear petrol getting "flushed" into the mix......This was all some 30 years back, but the engine/carburettor remain as is... nothing has been changed in the carburettor, other than a strip and cleanout of varnish and the very slight discoloring of resident grey film - most likely caused when "choking" the motor from cold.

My power valve just starts to unseat at 12"..... 10" has it well and truly open.
These are all adjustable - both in size and spring setting - but, I believe the techs at GMH (more likely Stromberg and Bosch) did very well to balance the ignition and fuel specs on a stock motor (which mine is... in fact, the cam was re-set by "Clive" of Clives Cams - worked on PB's race engines along with Ian Tate).
My ignition system is based on a (then) new Bosch distributor for a 186 motor.... the ignition itself is a British product called "Lumenition".
It simply has not moved one jot since being fitted back in 1982.... other than having to remove the dizzy and re-fit it when I have pulled out the motor and stripped it.
With a timing light - the beam is absolutely constant at any rpm (which you would expect from such a solid state system). Plug gaps are opened to nearly 40 thous.... the special coil can throw a heft spark that far quite easily - and at very high rpms (Lumenition spruke that it can throw 10,000 rpms on an 8 cylinder quite accurately).

For all intents and purposes, I am more than comfortable with running a stock motor at accurate and modest settings.
As mentioned - the 3:08 diff, larger 14" wheels and 195 tyres have certainly taken some of the sting out performance and I find that I have to "work" the motor a fair bit harder than previous - but it is by no means anywhere near the end of its chain on the open road.
I do note that I tend to find myself more on the power jet though - the added gain in lower rpms for economy, is very much consumed (excuse pun) by the greater demand on the power jet..... balance, this is what it is all about - getting the best out of parameters without causing strain on the componentry.....

frats,
Rosco
rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Just for a closer peek at these great units - I have fitted one in both the EK and Corona - they are virtually bullet-proof, need absolutely no servicing/maintenance and are a once-off fit to replace points and condenser etc.

The only suggestion Lumenition made to me when it was fitted to the EK in 1982 in Crown St, Richmond - was to give the emitter and receiver lens a quick wipe with a soft cloth to remove any "smear" from the distributor vent to the crankcase - in the frequency of about once every six months!

Being optronic, there is absolutely no electrical or magnetic influence from surrounding components.... the system will continue to work flawlessly with the distributor immersed in a tub of water (this was one of their sales promo's)... of course, the HT leads will fail - but the firing of the coil will not be affected.

In a boat, Craig - I can think of no better unit for ignition.... if you "go down with the ship" - at least your ignition timing will be doing its utmost to keep you afloat..... all puns pre-excused...

The link, should you (or anyone else considering replacing those pesky points and condensor quirks)....

https://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct ... de=030.250

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Ok so I've made a start on working out how to test the curve rate on the dissy. After some adaption of a camshaft degree plate and using a variable speed drill I think I've got it. Points to note:
Degree plate readings must be doubled to calculate crankshaft degrees
You may need an oil can so as to drip feed some oil for the dissy shaft lube if your going to run it constantly
Cordless drills do not like being overrun in the opposite direction when they are turned off - reduce speed very slowly
You can't use a battery charger as a power supply as the voltage regulation in the charger causes erratic tacho signal
You must use all leads and spark plugs as opposed to just using one due to excessive coil dwell saturation and spark scatter in the cap
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So far I have plotted the standard spec centrifugal advance rates and a spare dissy that was from a boat motor. I'm now into doing the one in the EK to see where its running at.

The blue line represents the Maximum allowable (standard spec)
Orange line is the minimum allowable (standard spec)
Grey is the curve as tested on a spare distributor
Yellow is where I think I should be with a high lift cam std duration
Initial timing and Vacuum advance isn't included as yet
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A few initial checks where also done with respect to checking the timing marks relative to crank position as well as ensuring I didn't have a hydro flywheel ring gear which would put the marks at 6 degrees initial as opposed to 2 degrees for a manual.
(Every ring tooth equates to about 3 degrees on the flywheel).
I'm also looking at checking the indexing of the rotor button as I belief the Pertronix Hall effect magnet switching points are sightly different to where the points would switch. This has shown up with arcing wear on the very tip edge of the rotor button and terminal points for each lead. Basically the rotor button needs to be in the correct position next to the respective terminal point for each lead when the spark fires and must be as close as possible relative to degrees advance position (width of the rotor button).
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Initial testing done today and stripped down the distributor out of the EK.
Major things found were:
Excessive end float on the main shaft as the fibre washer had disintegrated. This would have caused timing to wander.
Slack weight springs with weights not returning fully.
Insufficient vacuum advance travel 0.050" short which equates to about only 5-10 degrees (should be about 10-20).
And the Biggy was the Pertronix magnet. Once I had altered the centrifugal advance rate and then added extra vacuum advance I ended up with a misfire at light throttle cruising speeds. Full throttle the miss went away so this indicated it was relative to position of the breaker plate. One thing I have always noticed was that the rotor button never aligned back to the standard mark on the distributor body after fitting the Pertronix. After making changes to the centrifugal advance, resetting the base timing, then altering the vacuum advance start position (breaker plate), this put the rotor way too far away from no 1 terminal which caused the miss fire. I now know the 6 internal magnets in the Pertronix are not positioned to switch at the same spot as the points would. Anyway I refitted the magnet over the cam opposite to what it should be (this took some force and I don't know how it didn't break). Now with the base timing set back to 2 degrees as standard the misfire is gone, and when you remove the cap and check the rotor position it is correctly aligned to the mark on the distributor body when the flywheel at 2 degrees BTDC.

The last graph done is as close as I can get but will move up 2 degrees or so and better suits the slower advance rate needed for the cam. I think its as good as it gets without going fully electronic. These things were made to be standard or close and not very accommodating to refinement when you make changes. The problem with mechanical distributors is that they are pretty much linear in operation and engine mean combustion cylinder pressures aren't linear with revs. Change the cam grind slightly, fit oversize pistons, shave the head and up the compression a bit, and its all enough to throw it all out of wack. The joys of modification.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

A little bit of rework on my oil feed restriction to the rockers. So far it's all good with no oil out the breather but oil is slower to the top end on first start up now the weather has got colder as would be expected. Used a 1/4" UNF bolt ground down to a tapered point. Drilled and taped a hole at the opposite side of the oil inlet. 1 flat on the bolt equates to roughly .005" adjustment. Adjustment can be done by just removing the oil filler cap and accessing through the filler hole in the rocker cover. My first adjustment will be out about .050" and I'll work back from there. Just a balance between a good oil supply initially when cold and not too much when hot and revving hard which causes so much oil out the breather. Must note that I run the bleed hole blocked.
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