Harv's McGee injection thread

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Errol62
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Errol62 »

I had a proper look


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Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

Some more bits and pieces that have come to light as I pull the McGee set apart and clean it up.

The injection set was owned by a speedcar owner in Wollongong, and purchased by John Keen in the 1970s. John ran the set in his FX road car, though could not get it to run well on the street. Typical of mechanical injection, the vehicle had idle and WOT… and nothing in between. John ran the set on methanol only. John swapped the McGee fuel injection pump out for an Enderle unit, and installed an Enderle barrel valve. John cannot remember running a primary or secondary bypass, despite them being in place when I bought the unit. I suspect the photo below is of the injection set in John’s car. John sold the set to Max Bowen in Hobart, who may have added the bypasses. When Max passed away, the injection set was sold to a third party, and then on to me.

John Keen.jpg
John Keen.jpg (93.28 KiB) Viewed 822 times

Shown below are the injectors. The injectors have been cast from bronze, with most of the photos I have showing the dull gold colour. My particular set has been chromed at some stage, though the chrome has worn off fairly well.. The tappings in the photo below are 1/8-27NPT to suit the nozzles.

Injector top.JPG
Injector top.JPG (25.16 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The “other side” of the injector has three blank bosses. One of my bosses per injector has been tapped (again 1/8-27NPT) to suit a vacuum tapping. The vacuum was used to drive a fuel regulator (more on this later)

Injector bottom.JPG
Injector bottom.JPG (37.57 KiB) Viewed 822 times

Each injectors runs three 1.5” diameter butterflies (total of six butterflies). The injectors are also fitted with tangs to mount inlet ram tubes, tapped to #10-24UNC:

Injector inlet.JPG
Injector inlet.JPG (34.38 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The injector outlets are a simple design, with dividers between each inlet port. The two holes in the manifold to the right of the photo below mount the barrel valve, and are threaded to 5/16-18UNC. The remaining three holes mount the injector to the Repco head (i.e. the Repco heads have two injectors, each with three mounting bolts).

Injector outlet.JPG
Injector outlet.JPG (35.43 KiB) Viewed 822 times
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Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

The six injectors that were installed in the unit (and two spares) were all stamped 18X. As suspected, the 18 refers to the internal fuel metering orifice diameter. A check with the pin gauges shows the two spares are both 0.017”, and the six installed nozzles all 0.0195”. It’s likely the installed ones are a little larger than 0.018” from being cleaned, and the spares are probably slightly fouled from sitting around in a dusty/greasy bag. John was not sure whether the unit had run the 0.018” nozzles, or the larger 0.121” ones that also came with the unit. At some stage I will need to do the math to work out what nozzle size is appropriate given fuel demand and pump output.

I intend to refit the original McGee barrel valve, but will give some info here on the Enderle barrel valve that was installed when I purchased the unit. The barrel valve that John installed is an Enderle “square” unit (as opposed to the Enderle “K-type” units), which takes the 7/16-20 UNF Enderle screw-in pills (one “90” pill came installed in the barrel valve). The Enderle pill is larger than the 3/8-24UNF McGee pills. The set came with half a dozen McGee pills of differing size, which would suggest that a McGee primary bypass was used at some stage (more on that later).

The Enderle barrel valve is far larger than the McGee unit. All ports are 9/16-18UNF (-6AN), whilst the internal grub screw (see diagram below) is ¼-28 UNF. I have labelled the diagrams below in line with Enderle nomenclature found here:
https://goodvibesracing.com/Barrel_Valv ... onents.htm

Enderle barrel valve  bottom.jpg
Enderle barrel valve bottom.jpg (33.88 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve  front.jpg
Enderle barrel valve front.jpg (28.78 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve  left.jpg
Enderle barrel valve left.jpg (21.69 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve  rear.jpg
Enderle barrel valve rear.jpg (27.53 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve  right.jpg
Enderle barrel valve right.jpg (28.37 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve top.jpg
Enderle barrel valve top.jpg (25.53 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Enderle barrel valve assembly.jpg
Enderle barrel valve assembly.jpg (29.63 KiB) Viewed 822 times
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

The original McGee barrel valve also came with the injection set. It is a very simple brass unit, which screwed to aluminium fuel plate distribution block via four #6-32UNC fillister head screws, drilled for safety wire. The fuel distribution plate can be seen in the photo below.

Fuel distribution plate.JPG
Fuel distribution plate.JPG (43.34 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The fuel distribution plate mounts between the two injectors:

Fuel distribution plate in place.JPG
Fuel distribution plate in place.JPG (39.84 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Fuel distribution plate in place close up.JPG
Fuel distribution plate in place close up.JPG (46.71 KiB) Viewed 822 times

When John mounted the Enderle barrel valve, he had to fabricate a longer fuel distribution plate, which was hand drilled in a vice. John’s plate piggy-backs on the original McGee fuel distribution plate as per the photo below. Note that the fuel flow shown in purple is internal to John’s plate).

Fuel distribution plate extended.JPG
Fuel distribution plate extended.JPG (32.5 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The photos below show the McGee barrel valve:
McGee barrel valve front.jpg
McGee barrel valve front.jpg (29.72 KiB) Viewed 822 times
McGee barrel valve left.jpg
McGee barrel valve left.jpg (28.83 KiB) Viewed 822 times
McGee barrel valve rear.jpg
McGee barrel valve rear.jpg (36.98 KiB) Viewed 822 times
McGee barrel valve right.jpg
McGee barrel valve right.jpg (33 KiB) Viewed 822 times
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

McGee barrel valve assembly.jpg
McGee barrel valve assembly.jpg (10.49 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The Enderle barrel valve is significantly larger than the McGee unit:

McGee and Enderle barrel valve comparison.jpg
McGee and Enderle barrel valve comparison.jpg (29.46 KiB) Viewed 822 times

This really comes home when you compare the barrel valve spools. The “ramp” is the slot in the barrel valve that allows fuel to flow to the injector – the ramp in the Enderle spool is massive compared to the McGee unit:

McGee and Enderle spool comparison.jpg
McGee and Enderle spool comparison.jpg (22.32 KiB) Viewed 822 times

The flow diagram below shows the Enderle, McGee red motor and McGee grey motor barrel valve plumbing:

Barrel valve plumbing schematic.png
Barrel valve plumbing schematic.png (39.04 KiB) Viewed 822 times

Note that the Enderle unit has an internal grub screw, which can be used to block off flow. This was in place when John ran the Enderle metering valve (i.e. flow was blocked by the grub screw in the diagram above).

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

As an aside, the grey motor McGee injection set below (Dave's) has the correct ram tubes:

Dave Paganos mcgee injection.jpg
Dave Paganos mcgee injection.jpg (154.63 KiB) Viewed 819 times

If anyone has some kicking around (one-in-a-million chance), please let me know.


If not, I will adapt up some late-model ram tubes. Kinda like this :ebiggrin: :

Honkers.jpg
Honkers.jpg (6.41 KiB) Viewed 819 times

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by FJWALLY »

That wont work Harv - there is eight tubes on that one :yeahhh:
Harv wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:48 pm As an aside, the grey motor McGee injection set below (Dave's) has the correct ram tubes:


Dave Paganos mcgee injection.jpg


If anyone has some kicking around (one-in-a-million chance), please let me know.


If not, I will adapt up some late-model ram tubes. Kinda like this :ebiggrin: :


Honkers.jpg


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Harv
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Errol62
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Errol62 »

Looks like it could be a bit hairy mate.
Har
Har


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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

Some more info on the McGee pump from my grey motor set. The pump is a rotary vane pump (similar kind of setup to a Norman supercharger). The vane setup is similar to the Hilborn BL420 pump I overhauled here:
http://www.fbekholden.com/forum/viewtop ... rn#p227631
and different to the gear-pump setup of the Enderle 80A pump I pulled apart earlier in this thread.

The assembly of the McGee pump is shown in the diagram below:

McGee pump assembly.jpg
McGee pump assembly.jpg (27.08 KiB) Viewed 780 times

1) Casing lid screws (six off ¼-20UNCx5/8”)
2) Casing lid
3) Casing lid o-ring. The o-ring sits in a groove in the casing which is 2”OD x 1.75”ID x 1/8”deep. I have used a Seal innovations BS224FS70 224 fluorosilicone o-ring.
4) Steel rotor vanes (two off)
5) Rotor vane spring pin
6) Rotor vane spring
7) Rotor shaft
8 ) Pump casing
9) Non-drive end (NDE) bearing (note that items 9 and 10 are in the wrong order – the seal goes in before the NDE bearing). The NDE bearing (part number R8ZZ) is a 11/8”OD x 0.5”ID x 5/16”thick sealed ball bearing.
10) Seal. The seal is a twin lip nitrile rubber seal (Seal Innovations part number RS05010025LNC) which is 1”OD x 0.5”ID x ¼” thick.
11) Shaft spacers (two off). These spacers are required to transfer load during pump assembly. The bearings are pressed in to the pump casing with the spacers in between them. The bearings are then retained in the casing with a circlip. The rotor shaft is then pushed into the pump housing through the bearings. As the rotor shaft is driven into the pump casing, the NDE bearing will try to push out of the pump casing. The spacers allow the NDE bearing to bear on the drive-end (DE) bearing, and hence on the circlip. This prevents toe NDE bearing from moving during rotor shaft installation.
12) DE bearing. The DE bearing (part number R8) is an 11/8”OD x 0.5”ID x ¼” thick open ball bearing.
13) Pump casing circlip.

The two rotor vanes locate in grooves in the rotor, with the rotor vane spring between them as per the photos below:

vane and spring.jpg
vane and spring.jpg (33.18 KiB) Viewed 780 times
rotor and vane assembly partially removed.jpg
rotor and vane assembly partially removed.jpg (93.74 KiB) Viewed 780 times

The spring forces the vanes against pump casing volute walls as per the photo below:

rotor and vane assembly.jpg
rotor and vane assembly.jpg (73.22 KiB) Viewed 780 times

The spring pin sits in the centre of the spring, and gives the spring some reinforcement to prevent it from bowing in the middle.

The body appears to be cast bronze, the same as the injector. Mine has had some fancy chrome plating applied. The bronze housing is machined to take a press-fit steel volute. The volute has an inlet and outlet cut into it, which also communicate to a relief passage. The inlet and outlet are both tapped to 3/8-18NPT, whilst the relief port is tapped to 1/8-27NPT. The relief port has no internal machining to fit a relief spring, and has simply been plugged off with an allan-head grub screw.

The casing lid (Cast with the McGee name) seals off the top of the pump via an o-ring:

Casing lid.jpg
Casing lid.jpg (51.66 KiB) Viewed 780 times

Interestingly, the volute assembly site proud of the top of the pump casing by 0.013”. My finger is pointing to this assembly in the photo below:

Volute clearance.jpg
Volute clearance.jpg (67.63 KiB) Viewed 780 times

The upshot of this is that the lid itself does very little sealing, putting a large onus on the o-ring. The assembly can be seen in the diagram below (with the o-ring in yellow and the volute in orange)”

volute gap.png
volute gap.png (5.02 KiB) Viewed 780 times

I’ll past some more photos once I get the thing back together again.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

From what I can see so far, McGee made three types of early fuel injection pump. I've given them arbitrary names below:
Mcgee pumps 1.png
Mcgee pumps 1.png (296.45 KiB) Viewed 775 times
Mcgee pumps 2.png
Mcgee pumps 2.png (341.17 KiB) Viewed 775 times
Mcgee pumps 3.png
Mcgee pumps 3.png (91.72 KiB) Viewed 775 times
My grey motor set (shown above) is a round-head 6-bolt type.
Dave Pagano's grey motor set (the gold set above) is a round-head 4-bolt type, as is the black pump run on a gentleman's JAP slider.
My red motor set (the picture above on a kitchen benchtop) is the hex-head type.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

This time round, some info on the McGee vacuum fuel regulator that came with the grey motor set. The regulator is made from cast aluminium, machined up and fitted with a rubber diaphragm as per below:

McGee vaccum fuel regulator.JPG
McGee vaccum fuel regulator.JPG (979.42 KiB) Viewed 761 times

From the numbers given above:
1) Fuel inlet seat assembly. This assembly has been made by soldering a standard Holden Stromberg needle and seat assembly into a brass pipe tee. The seat thread (which screws into the housing) is the funky Stromberg 7/16-24UNS, whilst the pipe assemblies are 7/16-20UNF (with 45º SAE seat angle).
2) Fuel inlet seat assembly o-ring. This is required to seal the fuel inlet seat assembly to the housing.
3) Fuel inlet needle. This is a standard Holden Stromberg needle (in this case Viton tipped).
4) Fuel housing. The housing is tapped to 7/16-24UNS to suit the fuel inlet seat assembly, and 1/8-27NPT to suit the fuel outlet fitting.
5) Fuel outlet fitting. This nipple is threaded to 1/8-27NPT to suit the fuel housing, and 7/16-20UNF (with 45º SAE seat angle) on the pipe end.
6) Housing screws (four off). These are #10-32UNFx7/8” filister head screws, drilled for safety wire.
7) Vacuum diaphragm. The diaphragm has been made from 1/16” thick rubber sheet. The diaphragm shown in the image came with the unit, and was very brittle. I have since replaced it with a new diaphragm cut from a roll of insertion rubber (available from Bunnings).
8 ) Spring carrier. The spring carrier has been made by soldering together a brass tube and disc.
9) Spring. The spring has a free length of 0.62”, a diameter of 0.41” and has been made from 0.044” diameter carbon-steel wire.
10) Spring carrier washer.
11) Vacuum inlet fitting. This nipple is threaded to 1/8-27NPT to suit the fuel housing, and 7/16-20UNF (with 45º SAE seat angle) on the pipe end.
12) Vacuum housing. The housing is tapped to 3/8-24UNF to suit the adjustment screw, and and 1/8-27NPT to suit the two vacuum fittings.
13) Adjustment screw. The screw is a sold metal rod, threaded to 3/8-24UNF. The rod is drilled at one end to receive the spring carrier stem, and machined at the other end to accept a 3/16AF allan key. The allan key is used to hold the adjustment screw whilst the lock nut is tightened.
14) Vacuum port plug
15) Adjustment screw lock nut. This is 3/8-24UNF nylock nut.

The regulator acts to provide additional fuel at idle. Under full throttle conditions, there is precious little engine vacuum. The regulator acts as per the image to the left below.

Vacuum fuel regulator.png
Vacuum fuel regulator.png (8.02 KiB) Viewed 761 times

The fuel (shown in red) is stopped by the needle (shown in pink), which is sitting on it’s seat. The spring (shown in green) provides the force to hold the needle and seat closed. When the engine returns to idle (or cruise), vacuum is generated in the inlet manifold. This vacuum passes to the vacuum fuel regulator, as shown in blue in the image above right. The vacuum acts on the diaphragm (shown in purple), opposing the spring pressure.

As the vacuum increases, the spring pressure is overcome, and the diaphragm flexes downwards. This allows the needle to come off it’s seat, and fuel to flow.

The adjustment screw (shown in yellow) provides compression to the spring. Winding the adjustment screw into the vacuum fuel regulator housing compresses the spring, making the spring generate more force. A larger engine vacuum would be required to get the needle to lift off it’s seat. For a given vehicle, this will delay the introduction of idle fuel (i.e. in returning from WOT to idle, supplementary fuel will be added later).

Like the pump, I'll post some more photos once I get the vacuum fuel regulator screwed back together.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a grey motored FED.
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

As promised, some photos of the completed vacuum fuel regulator:

Regulator.JPG
Regulator.JPG (29.31 KiB) Viewed 740 times
Regulator top.JPG
Regulator top.JPG (48.55 KiB) Viewed 740 times
Regulator bottom.JPG
Regulator bottom.JPG (40.63 KiB) Viewed 740 times

No laughing at my safety wiring... not my best effort. Note that I have the locknut back waaaaay off, to remove all pressure on the diaphragm for storage.

I also started putting the McGee pump back together with new seals and bearings. Learned some stuff along the way:

a) the seal has a weird orientation - closed surface into the pump, as per the photo below:

Seal orientation.JPG
Seal orientation.JPG (56.63 KiB) Viewed 740 times

It needs to be in this orientation to correctly seal against the pressure side of the pump. The drama is that the "closed surface" of the seal is the bit you normally belt on to install a seal. With this flat surface going in first, care needs to be taken that driving in the seal does not damage the lip. Use the old seal as a driver, backed with a socket.

b) the non-drive end bearing does not have a firm seat (the seat is chamfered, not a harsh 90º ledge). This can allow the non-drive end bearing to sit canted. A canted bearing magnifies shaft misalligment, and there is enough slop in the (new) drive-end bearings to allow the shaft to stay crooked. This is a big problem for the pump, as the rotor will not sit flush in the volute. Care needs to be taken to ensure the shaft is alligned before boxing the pump up. Some gentle taps with a copper hammer on the rotor helps.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

Managed to get the hoses made up for the injector lines. The old ones were so hard and brittle that they would not uncoil.

hoses in place.jpg
hoses in place.jpg (68.52 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Couldn't get new hose ends (they are SAE 45º flare), so Pirtek recycled the old ones.

hose end.jpg
hose end.jpg (65.91 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Injection pressure will probably be around the 50-90psi mark. The hoses are good for 150psi.

In the top photo, the fuel distribution plate is oriented to the top of the photo. This puts the hoses on the wrong side of the injectors (the nozzles are on the other side). The reason for doing this is that the fuel distribution plate ties together the two injectors. With the plate on the "top side of the photo", the injector throttle shafts line up. If I turn the plate around (to the "bottom side of the photo"), the two throttle shafts do not align (by about 2mm). Seems like a lot, but I guess these are 60 year old castings... mould alignment was not perfect back then.

I've got two options:
a) leave the fuel distribution plate as per the photo, and get longer lines made up. They will be unsightly and tangled... not a good idea. If I have to go this way, I'll make the lines from flared tube.
b) orient the fuel distribution plate the other way, and hope there is enough flex in the linkage W-clip to take up the 2mm missallignment. Will probably take this option, though a little fearful about throttle binding. Will have to suck it and see.

Have got a bunch of #6 UNF capscrews coming that should let me bolt up the barrel valve, throttle stops and linkage. More to come.

Cheers,
Harv
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FJWALLY
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by FJWALLY »

How are the two throttle shafts activated harv? by a linkage on each outer end? just looking at the butterflies inside they seam to be 90 degrees apart so activated separately by a split lever arrangement?
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Re: Harv's McGee injection thread

Post by Harv »

I've accidentally got one set of butterflies 90º out in the photo above. They should be parallel.

The throttle shafts pass through each of the three buterflies, then poke out the side of the injector. The two "poking out shafts" get joined with a W-clip (like some of the old Stromberg setups). One throttle shaft is short, the other long. The long shaft gets a throttle arm. It looks like the original throttle arms were the el-cheapo type made from pressed plate that Redline Performance sell. Prone to slippage on round shafts.

The barrel valve also gets a throttle arm. A linkage is then used between the two throttle arms so that the butterflies and barrel valve spool are synchronised.

A third throttle arm gets connected to either the injector or the barrel valve (I've shown it on one of the injector shafts in the dodgy image below). This third arm takes the throttle cable. Note that my dodgy drawing does not show the injector bodies, just the butterflies and shafts.

There are heaps of warnings against putting throttle arms on both sides of any component (eg on both the left and right hand shaft ends of an injector). Apparantly they must be on one side only to prevent throttle shaft torque jamming the butterflies.

linkage.png
linkage.png (102.13 KiB) Viewed 721 times

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a grey motored FED.
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