Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Includes fuel system, cooling system and exhaust.

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Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

Ladies and Gents,

An interesting machine has appeared in recent weeks – one of Eldred’s Type 265 Normans. The machine was purchased by Peter from a mate in the late 70’s. The mate in turn had purchased the machine from a gentlemen west of Toowoomba, Queensland. The machine has seen some use, having wear on the belt tensioner pulley and some minor marking inside. The Type 265 has since sat idle, though Peter has been taking a look at it over recent weeks.
Front corner on stand.jpg
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The Type 265 was manufactured by Eldred by bolting together two Type 65s. Peter’s machine is mounted on a red motor supercharger to cylinder head manifold. The carburetor to cylinder head manifolds are cast in two piece, and then welded together. The manifolds have bosses that can be milled/tapped to suit different carburetor combinations, either twin carbs or triples. It is possible that the configurations were
a) manifolds run separately (no welding), with one downdraught carburettor per supercharger bank, and
b) manifolds welded together, with three sidedraught carburetors into a common plenum.
Peter’s Type 265 is a water cooled unit, with the standard “Casting Number 22” cast into it. The serial number (535) is stamped under the front of the unit. This is the highest serial number I have seen on a Type 65. The supercharger weighs 118.4 pounds (less carburettors). The rotor is solid steel, weighing near 50 pounds on its own. The rotors bear two-piece vanes, 9.921" long (standard Type 65 vanes are 10”). The Norman is fitted with triple H6 SU carbies, though these were not on the unit when purchased. The unit has no relief valve.

This is a pretty unique unit - I know of only one other survivor (a Type 270), owned by Mike Norman.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Blacky »

thats a serious hunk of steel to be turning !! :shock: :shock:
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

Blacky wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:32 pm thats a serious hunk of steel to be turning !! :shock: :shock:
You can see why Eldred wasn't a fan of chain drives or gilmer belts. If the engine decides to stop whilst that rotor is still spinning, the forces on the crank snout are massive. Vee-belts will at least slip a bit.

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Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Errol62 »

This may interest you Harv
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gungahli ... ios_social
Cheers
Clay


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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

Thanks Clay - appreciated.

I spoke to Robert a couple of months back when his photos first appeared on FaceBook (Harv doesn't do FaceBook... the bullshit to fact ratio is too high). I sent him the info below, which he has used for the Gumtree ad. His view on pricing is his own.

From what I can see in the FaceBook photos, he has a Type 75 Deluxe Norman supercharger. I know of only one other Type 75 survivor, which I own (I also have a Type 45 - more on them below). His is serial number 40 (my Type 75 is serial number 12). I collect the history of the various Normans, and can often trace them from one owner to another. This is the first time I have seen his.

The Type 45, 75 and 90 were developed as a family of superchargers, often referred to as Series 2 (Series 1 compromising the Type 65 and Type 70). The Type 45, Type 75 and Type 90 were manufactured by Eldred whilst still living in Adelaide. Using Eldred’s measurement process, the Type 45, Type 75 and Type 90 had a capacity of 45, 75 and 90ci/rev respectively. Using the modern measurement system gives 83 and 149ci/rev respectively for the Type 45 and Type 75 (I have not been able to find a Type 90 to measure). Interestingly, when using the modern method the Type 75 (149ci/rev) has a larger capacity than the Type 110 (145ci/rev). This is due to the placement of the inlet and exhaust ports, which is not accounted for in Eldred’s method.

The target market for the Type 45 was engines up to 107ci (smaller than a Holden red motor), whilst the Type 75 and Type 90 were targeted at the 186ci Holden red motor and 225ci Valiant slant-6 engine respectively. The Type 45 was sold as a blower-only package, with manifolding being made by the end-user to suit the specific application, whilst the Type 75 and 90 could be purchased as a package, utilizing the original vehicle’s carburetor. Note however that some Type 75 installations swapped Valiant Carter carburetors on to Holden 186ci engines, probably due to the 111/16” Holley 1920 or Carter BBD carburetors (235 or 260 cfm@3”Hg) being of greater capacity than the replaced Holden single barrel 15/32” Stromberg (210cfm@3”Hg), albeit less than a WW-series carburetor (280cfm@3”Hg) fitted to the HR “S” 186ci engine.

Type 45, 75 and 90 superchargers have steel rotors, radially finned alloy casings with a cast iron liner, steel end plates and integral inlet and outlet manifolds (all other Norman superchargers have separate inlet and outlet manifolds). Type 45’s have seven radial fins, whilst Type 75’s have twelve (I do not know how many fins a Type 90 had). Type 45’s and Type 75’s had “45” and “75” stamped (not cast) into the housing (I’m not sure if Type 90’s did but suspect so). The Type 45 is air cooled, whilst the Type 75 is water cooled with no welsh plugs.

An article was written for Australian Hot Rod magazine in November 1966, titled Blow for Go! Norman Style. The article has a lot of technical detail, and is very likely to have been written in consultation with Eldred… giving confidence it is factual. The article refers to two models, a Standard (no clutch) and DeLuxe (clutched). The article notes three sizes:
• the size shown in the article, which is a Type 75 supercharger.
• a 4” shorter size designed for engines up to 1750cc/107ci (the Type 45 supercharger), and
• a 2¼” longer size for engines up to 4000cc/244ci (The Type 90 supercharger).
Looking at the article detail, the Standard and DeLuxe have a hard-chromed steel liner. Note that this is interesting, as Mike remembers that none of Eldred’s supercharger liners were chromed or surface treated. The majority of Eldred’s liners were made from cast iron diesel truck sleeves. At one stage, Eldred managed to secure some chilled cast iron sleeves from Repco. These were found to be too hard, and Eldred reverted back to the normal cast iron sleeves. Also of note from the article:
• steel rotors (aluminum had been tried but had only 1/8th the life of a steel rotor). The Type 75 had a rotor of 4½” diameter, bored 2”,
• cast-iron end plates (aluminium had been tried but wore the rotor ends). The Type 75 was 13/8” (inclusive of the fins). Note that this is different to the earlier Type 65’s and Type 70’s, which have aluminium end plates,
• an internal diameter of 5½” and an overall width of 12” for the Type 75,
• four ¼” vanes lots to average 2½” depth, with ½” of support at the base of the lobe slot,
• a 1½” long boss for the pulley drive key back to the front bearing on the Standard, with no boss on the Deluxe (the pulley for the Deluxe being mounted on ball races).

Whist the Type 65 and Type 70 superchargers were largely used on Holden grey motors (along with other engines of similar size), the Type 75 marks Eldred’s change to targeting the Holden red motor. Unlike the earlier Type 65 and Type 70’s, the Type 75 supercharger is mounted on the driver’s side of the Holden engine, with the inlet to the bottom and the carburettor on the steering box. The supercharger outlet is fed across the top of the rocker cover via a cast alloy air/air intercooler.

An additional article was written for The Australian Hot Rodding Review of January 1967, titled Blowers for Holdens!. The article was written inclusive of a visit to Eldred’s workshop in St Peters, Adelaide (the visit must have occurred before Eldred moved to Noosa in 1966), and is again very likely to have been written in consultation with Eldred and likely to be factual.

Looking carefully at the Australian Hot Rod and Australian Hot Rodding Review images shows that they are the same vehicle, being Eldred’s HD Holden utility.

Note that his supercharger is a Deluxe - it is a clutched unit, allowing the supercharger to be switched on and off (like Mad Max). I know of only one other surviving clutch unit (my Type 75). The clutch system is driven by engine oil pressure on the diaphragm to the rear of the supercharger. This involves teeing off the engine oil supply, and putting an oil switch (valve) inside the cabin.

I suspect that the Norman has never been run in the configuration it is in. I could be wrong (and often am), but it appears the carb plenum is on the discharge side of the supercharger.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

It is a very, very small world.

Richard Lock, based in Melbourne owned an LC GTR Torana, with a port and polished head, 20/60 cam and extractors. Richard contacted Eldred Norman to enquire about a supercharger to suit. Elded indicated that he had several people waiting for new units, though he did have one used unit (a Type 110 Lightweight which had seen service on his son Bill’s LC Torana) that he could sell. This is the same vehicle that Bill was punting around Australian race tracks that has been discussed in the thread above:

Richard agreed, and travelled to Noosa to have the supercharger fitted. During his visit, Richard took a ride in Eldred’s Norman-blown HD ute, watching the front end rise several inches as Eldred engaged the supercharger clutch from inside the cabin. The Type 110 supercharger came complete with twin 1¾” SU carburettors and a water injection system, and was run at 9psi boost. The water injection system was supplied by the plastic bottle seen in the passenger front end of the engine bay, and used vacuum to automatically draw water into a box on the SU’s via brass nozzles. The supercharger’s twin SUs would not fit under the Torana’s bonnet, and a hole needed to be cut. Richard drove the completed car back to Melbourne, terrorising local GT Falcon owners for a number of years. The car made the occasional run at Calder Park, returning a time around 15.3 seconds. The car was taken to the Firth Motors workshop at Queens Avenue, Auburn (Melbourne) for a tune. Harry was not impressed with the water injection, and disconnected it. The engine began to suffer from pinging, and ended up blowing the ring lands from the pistons around Christmas 1971. The GTR engine was rebuilt and swapped into Richard’s early Holden, with a new GM parts XU1 engine going into the Torana. The Type 110 sat for some time before being sold around in the early 2000’s to a gentleman from Werribee who was aiming to put it into his HR Holden.
Richard Locks LC GTR Torana.jpg
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Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Blacky »

Saw a bit of Norman porn today - albeit a red setup
Image

Twin type 65’s set up to fit a 9 port with SU induction ImageImageImage


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When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Blacky »

Image
Image
Image

Fella has had it for 40 years so the story goes , figured it’s time to do something with it. Has a modified 9 port head to suit with this stamped into it - guessing it’s the mob who did the porting, was done in Qld apparently
Image


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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

That would be Peter's Type 265. Have been talking to him for a few years now... good to see he's got it off the engine stand and getting into it.

Cheers,
Harv
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by gpi »

Just heard a ripping yarn about this norman
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by gpi »

it was raced on a later version of this bike
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by gpi »

A story and request for help from my friend Neal Bolam,
to find any items such as the Norman Supercharger and Howarth Fuel Injector used on a Rickman 8 valve Triumph Drag Bike,
built by Bob Murphy from Townsville, and raced it all over Australia,
he eventually sold it to a bloke in Townsville, who dismantled it, then Neal in 1981, bought the pieces,
rebuilt it and raced it at Townsville Bohle Drag Strip in 1981/82.

Currently Neal has a large part of the bike and working to restore it, missing the Blower and injection, the attached pics are the missing items.
The two items were in Tasmania then sold by Rob J aka 4Hammers to a bloke in Melbourne called Mick? in June 2004, hoping he still has it.
Neal speaks with the original builder Bob regularly, and fills him in on the history.
The Supercharger was specially built by Eldred Norman for Bob for his 700cc motor, Bob also modified the injector with a second fuel system to add Nitro and built the manifolds. Neal is very keen to have the Bike complete again.

I spoke to Neal this morning and we are going to make this happen.
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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Errol62 »

Exciting mate

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Re: Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by Harv »

If Neal wants a chat, happy to talk to him about the Norman or Howarth injector. May be able to help him out with parts or leads on Normans/injectors. Know of at least one other Norman-blown Trumpy in running order. PM me his contact details and I'll reach out when things are quiet.

I spoke to Rob J about 2 years back. If my memory is right, he had two Normans (one with the Howarth injector, one with an Olbis injector). I was chasing the Olbis unit, and hunted down the huffer to a bloke in Victoria with an FC Holden. The Olbis had vanished into the mist :cry: . Finding a grey motor Olbis injection set to reverse engineer is on my bucket list... have never seen one other than in photos. They all evaporated in the early 2000's.

Cheers,
Harv
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Harv's Norman supercharger thread

Post by gpi »

Thar she blows…and blows…

Image
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