Turning Circle

[troy_fb]

I have just completed a rebuild of the kingpins and control arm bushes on my wagon. What a bl00dy difference, I'm not sure why I have put up with stiff and wandering steering for the last 16 years? I'm having trouble getting used to the fact that I don't have to grip the steering wheel for grim death Just relax!!!

But... My turning circle has increased by quite a bit. I suppose it could be due to the fact that the kings pins/control arm bushes are not flopping over that extra bit but there is a big difference and it is a bit harder to get into a parking space.

I just got a wheel alignment yesterday, but when I got home noticed that the kingpin inclination figures are more like 10degrees rather than 5degrees? I can't see that anything would have changed that though during changeover?

I just did a search and saw that Rosco posted a message saying the turning circle should be 36.5 feet, so I will go and measure it this arvo.

Anyone have a similar issue before?

Troy

[rosco]

Hi Troy,
I'd be interested to know what your circle now is..........
I am unsure whether the stated 36.5 feet is inside diameter or outside -
- my feeling is that it would be outside...........

can you post your findings?

frats,
Rosco

[troy_fb]

I seem to have a turning circle of about 12.5 metres or 41 feet on the inside and nearly 15.2 metres (49.5 feet) on the outside track. Sounds like I may have a problem. On full lock steering knuckle does not stop against the steering support stops. Everything looks fine underneath.

Will have to disengage pitman arm and idler arm in order to see where it is binding or stopping. Could be either the new king pins or maybe idler arm. I doubt its the steering box/pitman arm as I didn't touch them while fixing up the front-end.

Does anyone else go through idler arms every few years? My last one was flopping around on the bush after only 1.5 years.

Would kill for a hoist.

[rosco]

Hi Troy,
did you measure the turning circle both in left and right turn?

I don't know, but it could be that you do not have your steering box centred when you put the pitman arm on................
I'm not sure on this - I can't remember when I did mine -
If your steering arm is not making the stop, there's something telling me it is not fitted correctly.............

As for the idler arm, in conjunction with the previous loose assembly, I feel there is something fitted incorrectly................

will watch this for those who have a greater understanding to reveal possibilites.

frats,
Rosco

[troy_fb]

Same turning circle both left and right which seems to eliminate pitman arm not being centred and idler arm on too far and running out of thread one way.

Will investigate further.

[oldnek]

Troy,
Your turning is definately excessive. Do you know what is your toe out on turns measurement is, maybe you have a bent steering arm. KPI is a little on the high side, but that will improve steering stability. I'm not sure if the centre drag link is the same on both sides, were the adjusters are, maybe its in back to front. Or it's not nothing silly as the upper control arms are reversed.
I will have to have a look a front end and see the differences.

Regards John

[FB MAD]

This ones sort of got me stumped

Troy, did the wheel alignment mob give you a pre alignment and post alignment printout sheet at all??

If so, post up the figures, maybe there's something sinister in them??

Terry.

[troy_fb]

While looking though manual, I saw that the maximum turning angle is 36.5 <b>degrees</b>. Possibly this is what you were thinking about Rosco when you said 36.5 feet turning circle.

If anyone with standard front end is able to go do a doughnut on a bit of dirt/sand and measure their turning circle for me I would be very appreciative. I don't know how to go about measuring a turning angle, so the circle diameter would be better.

Anyways, all I removed and replace was the OUTER pivots pins/bushes and kingpins. I did not remove the control arms, pitman arm etc so I doubt anything has gone wrong with them. I also doubt I have bent steering arms as I had an excellent turning circle before I did this job.

I do have alignment figures at home. Will post them later. Will also try take a photo or two in case it looks like something obvious is different/bent/upside down.

Thanks all.

[troy_fb]

Here are the results from the wheel alignment and a couple of photos from the rear. Very difficult to photograph under a car

Left from rear


Right from rear


Alignment results


[/url]

[rosco]

Hi Troy,
if you have a look on the second page of your manual (I am guessing you have the factory manual?) - you will find under general specifications that the turning circle is quoted as 36.5 feet - I checked both on FB and EK and found the same-
I also posted both general specs in the Tech section - all typing is verbatim as I transcribed it................

I'll have to leave the figures you posted from your wheel alignment - others have a much better understanding of how these may relate to you circle problem.............

Thanks for your reply Troy, this will be yet another little "learn" for us as we find problems and how to overcome them.......

frats,
Rosco

[FB MAD]

From the GMH FB shop manual ( this is from the GENUINE Holden shop manual part number M32614 printed December 1959 ) .

Camber 0 to 2 degrees positive.

Caster

Models 215,225 1 to 2 degrees positive.
Models 219,229,2104,2106 0 to 1 degree positive.

King Pin Inclination ( KPI ) 5 degrees + or - 1/2 degree

Toe-in 1/16 inch to 3/16 inch

Toe out on turn Outer wheel angle set at 20 degrees,
Inner wheel should read 22 1/2
degrees + or - 1/4 degree.

Maximum turning angle 36 1/2 degrees ( yes, definately says
"degrees"... not feet )


Troy, from the above figures it would appear that your wheel alignment is within spec. Caster is probably not as much as it should be but we are only talking a poofteenth of an inch difference between your measurements and spec measurement so it really wouldn't make much difference there.

Kingpin inclination figures are way out for some reason however.Should be as stated ( 5 degrees + or - 1/2 degree ) but yours show 15 degrees on one and nearly 10 degrees on the other.Thats what has me stumped .

That said, if it were my car and it was steering,cornering,braking and wheels weren't wearing out with those figures then I wouldn't worry too much about it and just see how it goes.

Hope that helps ( doesn't worry you too much )

Cheers,

Terry.

[troy_fb]

Just an update to those who have given me some guidance.

Dropped drag link off idler and pitman arms to try and see whether there was anything preventing maximum turning angle. Everything looks fine. Full movement of steering knuckle on kingpins and of steering wheel/pitman arm and idler arm.

Still get larger turning circle than I used to but will just have to get used to it I suppose. 90degree parking just takes a wide swing or a reverse and second bite at it

Like you say Terry the only thing that stands out is the kingpin inclination, but I don't know what might have contributed towards that or whether it would really reduce the turning circle.

Anyway, thanks

Troy

[rosco]

Hi Terry and Troy,
I am perplexed.................

I have the exact same workshop manual - part no. M32614 and also the EK version part no. M33099

Page 9.12 in both manuals
Specifications - line 5 - Turning circle = 36.5 feet................?

We may be using different parts of the manual..............?

End of the day, it doesn't matter - just confused as to where the paradox is....

As Terry mentions, if it isn't scrubbing tyres and runs straight with hands off - I wouldn't be concerned - I have a disgusting turning circle in mine on r/h lock, and have lived with it since the modification.............
Good excercise - gets those biceps in shape - a bit unfortunate for the fairer sex who don't want to end up like "Aunty Jack"

I have nothing further to suggest Troy, if the arms are making the stops with the draglink disconnected - I would expect it has to be box/linkage related.............

Can either of you please quote the page number where you are getting 36.5 degrees - just have to see it for myself ( I am certainly not doubting it in any way whatsoever - just have to read it, then I can put it to rest)

Thanks again - very glad to hear most of it is within spec - I can't explain the increase in inclination - would the wishbone pivot shafts be out of centre? I have no experience in steering adjustment - it is one of the very few jobs I must leave to those with the necessary equipment.....

frats,
Rosco

[rosco]

Me again,
just had to find out where you were getting your figures from...........
silly me, I was looking under Steering.......

You are obviously looking under front suspension.............

page 3-29 Front Suspension Specifications..........
as you stated - verbatim........
line 9 - Maximum turning ANGLE 36 1/2 degrees.........
uncanny - angle is same as actual turning circle in feet..........

just goes to show - there is always more than one alternative when in dispute.........

settled, I can sleep now....

frats,
Rosco

[troy_fb]

You're right Rosco, I was just looking at the Front Suspension section.
That seems a bit of a coincidence doesn't it, that the maximum turning angle would be 36.5 degrees and the turning circle would be 36.5 feet.

Thanks though,

Troy