harvs ek 327 wagon

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rosco
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by rosco »

Thanks Harv,
you appear to have this in hand...... just "why" there is a feed to the can at all times is still muffing me....
I only draw the comparison my layman's understanding that the indicators "stop" working when the ign key is turned off....
However, I have not had cause to test the feed to the can up above the steering column bracket.... maybe I will now.... for future reference.

Noise - yes..... you'll get "old" one day too.... we have a twin turbo V8 diesel in the "tow truck" (aka - land cruiser 200).... I have heard them with sports exhausts and they sound absolutely awesome - however, I simply couldn't put up with that noise when pulling a van - day in, day out for over 3 months each year.
The relative silence of this motor in stock format is extremely good.... open up the throttle and spool up the turbos and it migrates enough "grunt noise" through the firewall..... not out from the exhaust.

Horses for courses, I guess - and I do have a slight sports exhaust on my old bus..... but, the other two are as quiet as I can get them.

frats,
Rosco
EK283
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by EK283 »

Hi Harv,

Voltage is a constant where as current is a variable depending on what is being drawn eg light wattage etc.
A 12 relay coil must be wired plus to minus or vice versa depending on what you are using as a supply or switch.

When you measure current it must be done in series and when you measure voltage it is done in parallel.
So when you say the supply feed is straight from the fuse there is no switching as such because its constant. When you measure in series you are measuring the current drawn by the globes and flasher can and this is in amps (giving the illusion it is going on and off) but your voltage remains constant.

So back to my initial comment the relay needs a ground and Switched supply voltage from the flasher can or blinker wire to operate.

Regards Greg
So many cars so little time!
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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

Here's how I reckon it will work, without providing an earth to the relay (just run it in series in the power supply line)... I could be wrong though.
BLINKER.png
BLINKER.png (23.57 KiB) Viewed 1213 times
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
EK283
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by EK283 »

Hi Harv,

Yes you are right it will work this way alright. Its a bit like the Christmas tree lights of yesteryear in series, with the relay still going to ground just that its completing a circuit with all the other gear.
I know its probably not going to effect anything cause the current is probably very small in the relay anyway I'm just old school and prefer to have everything turn off and on by a separate trigger.(just my opinion).

Keep us posted how it works.

Regards Greg
So many cars so little time!
rosco
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by rosco »

You two have gone well over my head now.... but, if I get this correct -the relay is finding earth to energise the coil through the LED's....
I do know that positive will flow one way through a diode - and the opposite way in reverse polarity - is this how the relay is getting earth?

- by the positive going through the diode to power the LED - and negative feed back coming back the other way to provide earth to the relay?

frats,
Rosco
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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

I'm no sparky, and can only think of power like water flowing. My mind struggles with anything other than simple DC... the fancy electrical stuff I once knew has long been dissolved in ethanol :mrgreen: .

The relay is really just a glorified electromagnet. It needs current to flow through its curly curly windings to generate a magnetic field. The electromagnet pulls the relay switch shut, and gives me my clicky noise. I use the battery voltage (pressure) to push current (flow) into the relay via one end of the electromagnet. The current flows through the curly curly windings, and comes out the other end of the relay. It then flows through the flasher can. There is electrical sorcery inside that flasher can that sometimes makes the current flow, and sometimes dams it up. I've got no idea how that sorcery works, but suspect it involves Magic Smoke. If the flasher can sorcery decides to dam the current up, no current can flow and my electromagnet stops working. When the flasher sorcery decides to let current flow, it flows out of the flasher can, through the blinker switch (only if it is shut), through the LED into the LED earth connection then back to the battery. The LED is like a non-return valve, but performs no one-way function in this circuit... all the current is trying to flow one way all by itself.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
rosco
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by rosco »

thanks Harv,
got all that. What I was asking though - was if there was opposite pole backfeed through the LED (diodes) which gave the relay connection to earth to enable the coil to energise..... my suspicion is that this is the case.

Likewise, I find DC a lot easier to understand.... far too much backwards and forwards without actually going anywhere in AC for me.... very much like the string of steel balls.... you bounce one in at one end of the string - and one pops out the other end - no matter how many hundreds of miles of steel balls there are in the row.... and we need a minimum of two lines of these balls going in opposite directions at the same time - each time they change direction... I suppose, best put in our application - with an alternator, I understand the DC output bit - I don't have a good grip on the unrectified AC bit that comes off the stator/rotor.

DC is simply making connection from one side of your battery to the other - they are madly in love - the more robust the communication, the more intense this passion becomes....

Like your water analygy - if we refer to the use of a water pipe - voltage is the speed of the water going through it (pressure) - amperage relates to the volume of water which can pass through the pipe at that speed - as the diameter increases, so too does the volume...... and watts is the force it ultimately can produce when it comes out the pipe (power).....that's how it was put to me in simple terms.

thanks again,

frats,
Rosco
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BILLY BLACKARROW
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by BILLY BLACKARROW »

harv try this

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.c ... er-units-s
Flasher can that go's CLICK CLICK CLICK found it before here but cant seem to find it now you may have better luck.
must be able to get in Australia as well
Billy :arrow:
BILLY BLACKARROW
MY Father always said do the hard part first --because when you are OVER IT you only have the easy part left to do THINGS I HAVE TRIED TO LIVE BY
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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

Had the engineer go through and do the first inspection this week. Looks like I’ve got some stuff to do… will get an email to-do list shortly, though this is what I can remember:

a) Shorten thread length on front steering knuckle joint cotterpin (comes close to hitting extractors). These are the standard LH Torana ones, no drama to shorten with the Dremel.
b) Provide heat protection sleeving for the front brake lines. Fair enough, they are pretty close to the fenderwell headers, even with the original HR Holden brake spring thingies.
c) Provide star washers (cone shaped) for the countersunk disk brake caliper adapters. They didn’t come in the kit from CRS, so I assumed I didn’t need any. Easy enough to do, once I find some 7/16” countersunk star washers.
d) Provide washer for master cylinder firewall mount (one hole doesn’t line up as well as it should).
e) Provide heat shield for fuel pump and fuel line near rear muffler (fair call, it is pretty close).
f) Provide larger bump stops as factory bump stops are not in line with where the VP Commodore diff will swing up, and also need to limit suspension travel to ~110mm. I need to look closer at this one… anyone used larger bump stops, and if so from what???
g) Provide lockwashers for diff u-bolts (Holden provided double nuts, Harv should have too).
h) Reroute diff brake line to rear face of diff, not along the top, and provide an additional p-clamp. Thought I had left this line in the factory position, but maybe not. Easy fix.
i) Provide diagonal bracing inside diff saddles. These were made by V6 Conversions out of RHS, which is believed to be not rigid enough. Easy enough to weld in, but painful given it was OK’d by V6 Conversions (hate having to modify something I paid good money for).
j) Provide more rigid handbrake cable retainers (current ones are L-shaped, need triangulating), and stop cable rubbing on tailshaft when handbrake is on (fair enough).
k) Provide captive nut inside C-pillar seatbelt sash guide plates, as the tapped 6mm custom plates are not thick enough without a nut. This will be painful… need to get a nut up the inside of the pillar, hold in place then plug weld.
l) Provide PCV valve (my fault, I forgot this one… old 327 that I dummied up had it, new 327 does not).
m) Fix speedo (my fault too… speedo was working when I pulled it out before paint and panel, but no longer does).
n) Rear brakes lock up before fronts – needs proportioning valve.
o) Brake pedal too hard – need to think on this one, could be that the cam has no vacuum and hence the booster is struggling.

Tried my extra relay to get the indicators to go Click!. Works awesome... except that the new Tridon relay is too quiet (can't hear the clicking). Might have to find a louder relay.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

Did some homework on the brakes (both Googling, consulting a brake guru and talking to Hoppers Stoppers), and now have some idea what I need to check.

Front brakes are VN-VP ventilated disks with finned alloy calipers. Calipers have been kitted, and new brake hoses fitted. Rear brakes are VP Commodore disks, which came with the VP LSD. The rears have also been kitted, though use the factory hoses. Brake lines have all been run new by a brake mob, back before I learned how to flare brake lines. Master cylinder is brand new, as per XA/B/C Falcon (PBR part number P6258a). This is a 1” bore master as was used in the VN/VP V8’s with my calipers, so should be OK design wise i.e. I have matched the master and brakes OK. The VN/VP V6’s used a smaller bore master, though the 1” is equally OK. A PBR VH151 vacuum brake booster has been fitted (sourced from a Holden TC-TE Gemini). I did not reco the booster (other than a Dulux overhaul), though did check that it had the reaction disk fitted. The pedal sinks a little when the car is started, so the booster is probably OK. The master cylinder pushrod has been extended by Hopper Stoppers to provide appropriate booster pre-load (it protrudes about 1.5mm at rest). The handbrake cable retains EK Holden front cable with VP Commodore rear cable, using a custom (simple) intermediary lever. The standard EK pedal pendulum assembly is used, though is from a manual (the clutch pedal was removed and the shaft had a spacer installed).

a) I could be running out of vacuum with the lumpy cam, giving the booster nothing to work on. Need to fit a pressure gauge and check. If it is close to (or lower than) 16”Hg, then the booster is going to struggle. Booster really needs more like 18”Hg. This is especially true with the small VH151 booster – because they hold so little vacuum volume, it doesn’t take many brake pumps to empty the booster… if there is no/little engine vacuum, they take forever to refill. First solution is to fit a vacuum tank to the car (plenty of room in the engine bay). This gives more brake pumps before the master is empty. If that doesn’t work, then I need to fit an electric vacuum pump. Noisy and expensive.
b) If I have good vacuum, need to check that the vacuum supply line is not sucking itself in, and that the check valve in the booster is working.
c) If that doesn’t workout, I need to check the pedal ratio. Should be at least 4:1, preferably 4.5:1. I dread to think how I am going to change pedal ratio without major surgery.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Blacky
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Blacky »

Harv, I had the same problem with my '46 Chev, And my Scottish ancestry wouldnt let me buy a flash setup so I bought a second hand vacuum pump out of a Jeep at the wreckers , its a Hella UP30 , they have a 100% duty cycle and are reasonably quiet , then I bought a vacuum tank and switch from Armadale Auto Parts and got the whole thing sorted for about $300 . Made a huge difference , the first time I hit the brakes it nearly threw me over the handlebars !!!
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Craig Allardyce
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Harv you could convert to a alternator with vacuum pump fitted to it as you would find in most light diesel engine vehicles.
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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

Craig Allardyce wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:22 pm Harv you could convert to a alternator with vacuum pump fitted to it as you would find in most light diesel engine vehicles.
Thought about that one, though would hate to get rid of the existing alternator. It's a brand-new 90A Bosch, with a fair bit of time invested to get it to swing without fouling the stabiliser bar. Some Googling shows that there are a few vacuum pumps available, though most of the aftermarket stuff (CVR etc) is pretty noisy. From what I can see, the best bet appears to be a Hella pump, same as fitted to the VE/VF Commodores. Pricing looks like it would be an each-way bet on getting one from the wreckers (~$90, but a crap-shoot on how long it works) against buying new ($140). The only drama is that the Hella units need some form of signal to turn them on and off. The signal is buried inside the VE/VF Commodore electronic trickery, so would have to buy a Hobbs switch. There are a few mobs that make them (nearly died when I saw what Aeroflow wanted for one :shock: ), though I need to be careful about how they are set up. I want something with contacts open below 17"Hg, that closes contacts at pressure higher than 17"Hg.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Blacky
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Blacky »

I bought the switch through Armadale Auto Parts in Perth - 08 9495 1932 , they have done quite a few of these installs and have sourced their switches in the US so they are reasonably priced.
When you're faced with an unpleasant task that you really don't want to do, sometimes you just have to dig deep down inside and somehow find the patience to wait for someone else to do it for you.


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Harv
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Re: harvs ek 327 wagon

Post by Harv »

Blacky wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:09 pm I bought the switch through Armadale Auto Parts in Perth - 08 9495 1932 , they have done quite a few of these installs and have sourced their switches in the US so they are reasonably priced.
Thanks Blacky.

Looking for some info please on how to estimate bump stop location. The EK wagon has a VP Commodore Borg Warner diff, bolted up to the factory EK springs using EK mounting pads and U-bolts. The diff was narrowed by V6 conversions, who added the u-bolt mounting pads to the diff. I retained the factory EK bump stops (square plates, which hold a rubber bumper). When the engineer was taking a look at the car, he came to the conclusion that when the springs compress the diff would not hit the factory bump stops. To make this assessment, he propped the car up on axle stands (ie had the suspension drooping), and made some measurements under the car with a tape measure. He suggested larger bump stops, perhaps out of a Hilux, to both get the axle to hit the stop, and limit suspension travel.

Because I am intellectually challenged :crazy: , I didn’t ask enough questions of the engineer at the time, and don't understand how he worked out the location. Getting the guy on the phone is very difficult. My mental picture would be that the springs would behave the same with the new diff, and hence would hit the bump stop. Maybe the new spring pads that V6 conversions made are waaaaay different to the original diff.

From what I understand, the way to locate the bump stops is:
a) Take a piece of string and anchor it to the centre of the front spring shackle bolt.
b) Let the spring run out along the top of the leaf pack in a nice gentle curve. Gently tuck it under the diff (ie wedge it into the gap between the diff and the spring pack).
c) Use a texta to mark where the string is at the centre of the diff.
d) Pull the string out and cut it off at the texta mark.
e) Pull the string taut (it will move towards the back of the car).
f) Pivot the string upwards from the spring shackle bolt. Pivot it until it hits the body – this is where the bump stop should be.

Have I got this right? School me please on the black art of spring travel.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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