Seagull Grey EK 2106

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thebrotherj
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by thebrotherj »

Errol62 wrote:Reminds me of a story, yawn. Heading north out of Port Pirie one fine morning on a job in the EK “Standard” Sedan (186, 4 Spd etc). Put the hammer down as we overtook a car and trailer. On the wrong side of highway 1 doing 70 mph and bang, the screen turns to milk. Just a small hole low to the right of my field of view to spy the road ahead and pull over. Bashed it out and motored back to Pirie where a second hand screen was sourced from local wrecker, fitted and off we went to work up the road. Luckily the rubber was practically new and FB EK wrecks were relatively abundant back in the late eighties. Back home I had my panel and paint man source a brand new zone toughened screen and install it properly. Later it was broken by a mate who replaced with a laminated screen. This never fit properly, it was too wide for the opening. In removing it, it cracked top to bottom, thence ran a good second hand screen ever since. Still awake?
Cheers
Clay


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Still awake mate.

Been there only you got out of it better than me I’d say: this photo was taken Easter Saturday night 2000 round midnight at the old APS servo in Holbrook. Was driving overnight to Melbourne via the Monaro nationals in Wangaratta... the explosion when the stone hit woke my girlfriend in the passenger seat with a scream.

Decided to drive like this through the night which wasn’t too bad as the Hume was mostly dual carriageway from then so headlights aren’t coming at you head on. Wasn’t easy though!

Windscreen bloke at Wang came out when I called the emergency phone at 6am on water Sunday morning and charged less than $250 for the lot. Never once complained, was funny as hell actually.

Image

PS: ask me of I miss that car at your own risk
:’(



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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Errol62 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:19 am Reminds me of a story, yawn. Heading north out of Port Pirie one fine morning on a job in the EK “Standard” Sedan (186, 4 Spd etc). Put the hammer down as we overtook a car and trailer. On the wrong side of highway 1 doing 70 mph and bang, the screen turns to milk. Just a small hole low to the right of my field of view to spy the road ahead and pull over. Bashed it out and motored back to Pirie where a second hand screen was sourced from local wrecker, fitted and off we went to work up the road. Luckily the rubber was practically new and FB EK wrecks were relatively abundant back in the late eighties. Back home I had my panel and paint man source a brand new zone toughened screen and install it properly. Later it was broken by a mate who replaced with a laminated screen. This never fit properly, it was too wide for the opening. In removing it, it cracked top to bottom, thence ran a good second hand screen ever since. Still awake?
Cheers
Clay


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Yeh mate, still awake. Heath issues are a pain pardon the pun lol.
Yes I've had issues with several screens in the past, notably that they dont have the curvature right at the corners closest to the bottom edge and the seal rides up higher and eventually the thing leaks. I always do a trial fit with blocks and gap the screen first without the rubber. If it's not right I don't fit it and make the supplier source another that is correct. I've not had this problem for a while now so maybe they've got their shit together.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

thebrotherj wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:30 am
Errol62 wrote:Reminds me of a story, yawn. Heading north out of Port Pirie one fine morning on a job in the EK “Standard” Sedan (186, 4 Spd etc). Put the hammer down as we overtook a car and trailer. On the wrong side of highway 1 doing 70 mph and bang, the screen turns to milk. Just a small hole low to the right of my field of view to spy the road ahead and pull over. Bashed it out and motored back to Pirie where a second hand screen was sourced from local wrecker, fitted and off we went to work up the road. Luckily the rubber was practically new and FB EK wrecks were relatively abundant back in the late eighties. Back home I had my panel and paint man source a brand new zone toughened screen and install it properly. Later it was broken by a mate who replaced with a laminated screen. This never fit properly, it was too wide for the opening. In removing it, it cracked top to bottom, thence ran a good second hand screen ever since. Still awake?
Cheers
Clay


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Still awake mate.

Been there only you got out of it better than me I’d say: this photo was taken Easter Saturday night 2000 round midnight at the old APS servo in Holbrook. Was driving overnight to Melbourne via the Monaro nationals in Wangaratta... the explosion when the stone hit woke my girlfriend in the passenger seat with a scream.

Decided to drive like this through the night which wasn’t too bad as the Hume was mostly dual carriageway from then so headlights aren’t coming at you head on. Wasn’t easy though!

Windscreen bloke at Wang came out when I called the emergency phone at 6am on water Sunday morning and charged less than $250 for the lot. Never once complained, was funny as hell actually.

Image

PS: ask me of I miss that car at your own risk
:’(



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Holy hell. Nice car too. That's exaclty what I'm trying to avoid......and I think my wait time for a callout on the Nularbor for a screen will lots longer than that!
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Errol62
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Errol62 »

You do know it is bitumen all the way now of course Craig. Having cut and shut the a pillars on the van, not to mention the b pillars, sills, no 1 body member, under seat floor panel seam brace and front rear spring hanger extensions, I used my best screen as a template. I had access to three bodies and four screens at the time and they all compared within my 2mm measuring tolerance. Yet this laminated screen was more like 8mm too wide at the bottom corners. My panel man at the time did say that the mismatch was not uncommon and that he had experienced this on several occasions. I guess the FB EK screens are particularly susceptible and critical, both due to their complex shape.


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rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Bit busy at present, Craig - but always in contact.
Hope you are not waiting on me for procedure......?

Ok, so - we have our canopy etched... which etch did you use?.
Do you intend to spray in acrylic (thinner based)?..... if so, have you been down this track before.
Acrylic is just so "forgivable"... even if you stuff up spraying, you can recover and produce a pretty good finish by compounding...

If you are looking for a "mirror" finish - I can walk you through how I go about it, but - to match that of the Ute... we are probably aiming for a little less "finesse"....

I would encourage you to use a "guide coat" - a cheap black paint which only serves to be removed by rubbing it back to the point of removing all dips and high spots...

It is only a "misting" coat..... the more you put on - the more you'll have to rub off....hence the term "guide".... it is meant to be totally rubbed off.

Once you have the primers built up to the point that this guide coat reveals a level surface - we can go about running some top coats over it.....

Rubbing them back will produce the finish which parallels that of the Ute....

Final top coats will build up further build to work them down with a buffer to produce the finish you seek....

It's really all about how much work you wan to put into this to match what you already have.... I am guessing, the Ute is not mirror finished and more than likely has a "fluttered" sheen to it... with some "mirror" spots which have been worked down by numerous hand applications of "polish" (which actually has cutters in it) over the years..... ?

For now, with a deadline and time constraints - I'd recommend hitting it with a number of primer builds... not too heavy, but say - three good sprays of a reasonably generous coat - with perhaps 10 minutes between each for the thinners to find most of their way out.

Let that go for a good two days in good ventilation (air ) without sun on it... then, the very light "mist" of black guide coat.. 20 minutes, then start working the primer down with as hard a block as you can find and as long as the panel will allow for a continuous run when rubbing......

Work this wet with water..... stop! if the undercoat of etch shows through.... it will then be a "high" spot - rubbing further will bring you back to the substrate..... we need to build up the primer again..... and, another two days.....

When you reach the point where the guide coat disappears and no etch shows through - you are then ready for top-coating....

It's then only a matter of applying a number of coats to build a surface from which a great finish can be achieved.....

If your top-coats become "grit".. for goodness sake stop - no number of further coats is going to help... the paint had dried before it has hit the surface - and nothing will fix this other than blocking it back..... to a "dull" flat surface onto which further top coats must be sprayed....

This "sand" is a result of either the paint being too thick, temperature too hot, distance too far from the gun or the gun passed too quickly on the run...... once it shows up - stop!.... you can't "fix" this by further spraying.

Too wet is not so bad.... it can be blocked down and yet a good finish achieved..... but, it's far from desirable...

You really need to find a "balance" between wet, speed and distance - that's all that spray painting is about.....

I'd suggest, finding a "donor" surface to work on before applying top coats to your job.... an old fridge door is absolutely perfect...

Play around with pressure, mix, distance and speed of the pass on this door before you commit to the workpiece.....

and finally, confidence.... if you dilly-dally with a job (much like welding).... you are not going to be able to achieve the end result....
You must be able to walk up to this and hit it like Mohammed facing the mountain.... here, that fridge door will work wonders for your confidence......

Acrylic is the easiest of paints to apply with spray painting... I absoluetley love it... I have achieved some magnificent results (pat on back here) using some pretty ordinary equipment ( an airbrush at times)..

Let me know if you want more... but for now, you seem to be at the primer stage.... you will need some firm rubbing blocks (do not for one moment believe that you can achieve this by simple hand rubbing with fingers on a piece of wet and dry)... hard, and long...... and criss-cross your rubbing .... the guide coat will then show up all the "voids" which either need more primer/filler or where etch will show through to reveal the "high" spots........

I'm certain we'll be posting more here...... time is your biggest enemy.... primer needs time and airflow to let the thinners out... or you will find it will "sink" if you attack it too soon....

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Errol62 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:05 pm You do know it is bitumen all the way now of course Craig. Having cut and shut the a pillars on the van, not to mention the b pillars, sills, no 1 body member, under seat floor panel seam brace and front rear spring hanger extensions, I used my best screen as a template. I had access to three bodies and four screens at the time and they all compared within my 2mm measuring tolerance. Yet this laminated screen was more like 8mm too wide at the bottom corners. My panel man at the time did say that the mismatch was not uncommon and that he had experienced this on several occasions. I guess the FB EK screens are particularly susceptible and critical, both due to their complex shape.


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Yeh mate but we will be doing some dirt work on the way as well.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

rosco wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:46 pm Bit busy at present, Craig - but always in contact.
Hope you are not waiting on me for procedure......?

Ok, so - we have our canopy etched... which etch did you use?.
Do you intend to spray in acrylic (thinner based)?..... if so, have you been down this track before.
Acrylic is just so "forgivable"... even if you stuff up spraying, you can recover and produce a pretty good finish by compounding...

If you are looking for a "mirror" finish - I can walk you through how I go about it, but - to match that of the Ute... we are probably aiming for a little less "finesse"....

I would encourage you to use a "guide coat" - a cheap black paint which only serves to be removed by rubbing it back to the point of removing all dips and high spots...

It is only a "misting" coat..... the more you put on - the more you'll have to rub off....hence the term "guide".... it is meant to be totally rubbed off.

Once you have the primers built up to the point that this guide coat reveals a level surface - we can go about running some top coats over it.....

Rubbing them back will produce the finish which parallels that of the Ute....

Final top coats will build up further build to work them down with a buffer to produce the finish you seek....

It's really all about how much work you wan to put into this to match what you already have.... I am guessing, the Ute is not mirror finished and more than likely has a "fluttered" sheen to it... with some "mirror" spots which have been worked down by numerous hand applications of "polish" (which actually has cutters in it) over the years..... ?

For now, with a deadline and time constraints - I'd recommend hitting it with a number of primer builds... not too heavy, but say - three good sprays of a reasonably generous coat - with perhaps 10 minutes between each for the thinners to find most of their way out.

Let that go for a good two days in good ventilation (air ) without sun on it... then, the very light "mist" of black guide coat.. 20 minutes, then start working the primer down with as hard a block as you can find and as long as the panel will allow for a continuous run when rubbing......

Work this wet with water..... stop! if the undercoat of etch shows through.... it will then be a "high" spot - rubbing further will bring you back to the substrate..... we need to build up the primer again..... and, another two days.....

When you reach the point where the guide coat disappears and no etch shows through - you are then ready for top-coating....

It's then only a matter of applying a number of coats to build a surface from which a great finish can be achieved.....

If your top-coats become "grit".. for goodness sake stop - no number of further coats is going to help... the paint had dried before it has hit the surface - and nothing will fix this other than blocking it back..... to a "dull" flat surface onto which further top coats must be sprayed....

This "sand" is a result of either the paint being too thick, temperature too hot, distance too far from the gun or the gun passed too quickly on the run...... once it shows up - stop!.... you can't "fix" this by further spraying.

Too wet is not so bad.... it can be blocked down and yet a good finish achieved..... but, it's far from desirable...

You really need to find a "balance" between wet, speed and distance - that's all that spray painting is about.....

I'd suggest, finding a "donor" surface to work on before applying top coats to your job.... an old fridge door is absolutely perfect...

Play around with pressure, mix, distance and speed of the pass on this door before you commit to the workpiece.....

and finally, confidence.... if you dilly-dally with a job (much like welding).... you are not going to be able to achieve the end result....
You must be able to walk up to this and hit it like Mohammed facing the mountain.... here, that fridge door will work wonders for your confidence......

Acrylic is the easiest of paints to apply with spray painting... I absoluetley love it... I have achieved some magnificent results (pat on back here) using some pretty ordinary equipment ( an airbrush at times)..

Let me know if you want more... but for now, you seem to be at the primer stage.... you will need some firm rubbing blocks (do not for one moment believe that you can achieve this by simple hand rubbing with fingers on a piece of wet and dry)... hard, and long...... and criss-cross your rubbing .... the guide coat will then show up all the "voids" which either need more primer/filler or where etch will show through to reveal the "high" spots........

I'm certain we'll be posting more here...... time is your biggest enemy.... primer needs time and airflow to let the thinners out... or you will find it will "sink" if you attack it too soon....

frats,
Rosco
Thanks Rosco, yes I've been waiting with baited breath..................just joking, but I'm intending to hit it with the first coat tomorrow morning. Its finally etched and looking ok. What air pressure did you use to apply the Acrylic? I'm finding conflicting info.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Thanks Tim, I'm reading an average of 10-20 Psi max?????
rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Apologies for the late reply, Craig - was missing all day yesterday and just catching up on the mail now....

Pressure - as mentioned by the above - pressure is dependent on gun used.

I use an Anest Iwatta W-77 suction gun for my large work (door size and up) and a range of gravity fed guns for smaller work.

With the Iwatta, it needs 50 psi to get both a constant flow and good air fan - it consumes a lot of air, my 14 cfm twin compressor "just" keeps up with it if I don't work continuously - having pauses of 10 seconds or so between long passes (roof etc).

With the gravity guns, even the larger of them (1.4 mm nozzle set) requires much less pressure - as they do not need to "suck" up the paint into the head to atomise it with air flow through the gun.

All my gravity guns have an air pressure adjusting valve at the base of the handle.... I usually set pressure at the regulator outlet to around 40 psi.... and simply use the air valve on the gun for desired pressure. I find that the greater pressure in the line to the gun affords better "recovery" (pressure build-up at the gun once the trigger is released, and ready to start the next pass).

As for what pressure to spray at - this is entirely dependent on a number of things, each one affecting the other.

Firstly, the viscosity of the paint mix (how much thinners and the temperature of the paint). A thinner mix will spray "wetter" at a lower pressure - too much pressure and the paint will air dry on the way to the panel.... too little, with a gravity gun and you'll start to "dribble" or pulse the paint.
With acrylic, the usual mix is 2 parts paint to 3 parts thinner.
This is also dependent on the day when you paint - both the temperature and humidity. I do not spray over 60% humidity - for you can "trap" moisture in the layers of paint - and you will pay heavily on days when it is humid..... little pimples will show up and disappear on dry days... 60% is my limit.
Further, temperature plays a big part in success.... on a warm day, the thinners might evaporate on their way to the panel... and you end up with a dry film (worst case, it looks and feels like sand). If you must spray on one such day - use "slow thinners"... these are designed to evaporate slowly.. but, the downside is that you can get runs if you try to apply too thick a film - or overcoat too soon.
On colder days, I use and aggressive thinner...they are sometimes called "hot".... these are highly aggressive and will bite deeply into what lay beneath. Apply these too wet, and you risk having any filler patches show up as "dull" spots in the finish.. when spraying, you'll find that these stand out very clearly as the thinners evaporate.... they stay "wet" much longer than surrounding areas.
A "general purpose" thinner is middle of the road - and suitable for days with relatively low humidity and reasonably warm temperature... say 25 deg and 50%....

Next, we come to speed and distance - these have a lot to do with how much pressure we use.....
Too far away from the panel and we run into trouble with the paint drying before it hits the panel.... too close and we get it too "wet" - and it will run.
Directly related to this is speed of pass.... too slow, and it will build and run - too fast, and it will layer down too thin....

The fan control is pretty easy to set for the mix of the paint..... but, you need to use a test piece/panel to adjust it.
Spray directly at the piece without moving the gun... just a short burst....
If you get a heavy build in the centre with a thinning out area above and below that - you need to wind out the fan.
If you get a heavy build each side of centre (in the form of a figure 8 appearance) - you need to wind it in....
Both the pressure setting and the paint mix on the day will determine where that fan setting is.

The best time to practice getting a feel for your gun is with the many coats of primer.... all of these get blocked down - so it gives you a bit of reassurance that even if you appear to stuff up one of the coats or passes - it can all be rectified in the blocking back step.... and will give you a bit of experience as to "what" caused the issue.

Top coats will spray thinner than primers - due to the thinner nature of the paint pigments...... if you can spray primer with a good "wet" and consistent pattern - you will easily lay down top coats.... just remember it will go on faster and wetter... only experience is going to get you to the point where you will step up to the panel with the gun loaded and start....

Constant distance and speed of pass will give you the result you need..... overlap each pass by 1/3.... a good gun will tend to lay paint down more heavily towards the 2/3rds of centre - which allows you to keep the next pass "wet" on the previous 1/3rd..... and the final build coat will go down flat across the entire panel.


As I have suggested many times, see if you can find an old fridge door and spend 10 minutes or so playing with the adjustments on the gun... do not stress on what pressure to set your regulator at......it is "ballpark" if you have an air pressure control valve on the gun (highly recommended), if not - scribble down on a note pad the mix of the paint, the pressure used, the temperature and humidity and the result observed - and play around with those figures moving only one a little at a time and noting the change in pattern.

You can purchase a viscosity cup (I have one, used it once and found it to be too much of an effort to add into my routine).
You simply pour your paint mix into the cup with a finger over the hole..... place it over an empty jar and note the time it takes for the paint to run out of the cup... too long and the paint is too thick/cold - too short and it's too thin/warm.

You have the advantage here of spraying a "solid" color - and are using acrylic - the absolute easiest of all spray painting jobs you'll come up against.

We won't even make mention of pearls or metal-flakes - these are much more demanding and require more precise mixing, pressures and disciplines in pass speed and distance to achieve the level of particles in the depth of the paint film..... and, they demand top coating of a clear lacquer to protect..... solid acrylic is your best friend - it's just so "forgivable".

Let me know if you need more.... you might shudder to think I can type much more out - but I can very much assure you, I have reams and reams of stuff to add to this should you request it.....

Oh, by the way - I am not qualified in any of this stuff.... it's all come to me through learning to do it for myself - so, if there are any such qualified persons following who might like to chime in on anything I am errant on - please jump in, I am always open to be corrected or enlightened...

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

Thanks Rosco, I'll try and digest all this over the next week. I put off the painting as its been humid wet and windy so not the best conditions.

Today we attempted the windscreen with no success. In and out three times. Looks like the Rare Spares seal is the problem. Where the corners are bonded to the top and bottom rubbers they have been overlapped and there is a corresponding ridge and extra thickness in the seal which is preventing the screen from going all the way in. Severly dissapointed. We checked against the old seal and there is a marked difference. Screen fit with out seal (dimension check) was really good.

The old screen hs been saved and will be stored away. Body wise still no rust.
Pic_0210_207.jpg
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rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

Sure, Craig - let me know if you get stuck with painting..... it will be a lot easier than you might think - practice a bit on a donor panel and you'll save yourself a lot of concern.
Try to keep the surface "wet" as you lay it down - I tend to look more at the reflection from some light source than the actual paint as I lay it down on each pass..... if it reflects wet without running - I'm happy, if it very quickly goes from wet to dry immediately after the gun - it is either not thinned enough or you are moving along too fast. Too far away will almost immediately show up as the dreaded "dust" or "sand" finish.

Those windscreen aperture lower corners are mint..... the usual deal is that these corners rust out due to the stainless scew used to secure the cover to the body - dis-similar metals.... once that rusting of the steel starts - it gains momentum pronto.....
Of course, it is well hidden for many years until either water leaks into the cavity behind the footwell and you hear is sloshing around..... or the trim reveal pops out and you find that the screw is attached to a "blob" of rusted steel..... it's the archillies heal of the windows in our models...
The rear screen in a sedan is similar - to top corner screw does exactly the same - but being so high up, it does not seem to allow as much water into the boot.....
I drilled drainage holes in the front sill (inboard) to allow anything to get out.. along with opening up all the spot welds closing the design drain ports in the sills that our immigrant employees kindly welded up for me.... (sic).

Pity about the windscreen rubber - I will be up for a replacement when I fit a laminated screen - my front rubber is 1961 original. The old chap had one broken screen before I got the old bus.... and I had one in 1977 (Tuncurry, NSW)..... it has most certainly been on borrowed time since then.... chips galore, and I believe now very brittle glass....

frats,
Rosco
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by rosco »

SunnyTim wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:55 pm Are you doing laminated or safety glass?
Very good point, Tim.

frats,
Rosco
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

SunnyTim wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:55 pm
Craig Allardyce wrote:Thanks Rosco, I'll try and digest all this over the next week. I put off the painting as its been humid wet and windy so not the best conditions.

Today we attempted the windscreen with no success. In and out three times. Looks like the Rare Spares seal is the problem. Where the corners are bonded to the top and bottom rubbers they have been overlapped and there is a corresponding ridge and extra thickness in the seal which is preventing the screen from going all the way in. Severly dissapointed. We checked against the old seal and there is a marked difference. Screen fit with out seal (dimension check) was really good.

The old screen hs been saved and will be stored away. Body wise still no rust.

Pic_0210_207.jpg
Pic_0210_208.jpg
Yes I have just come upstairs after doing 3 true at a front screen also with a new rare spares rubber. Nearly threw it over the fence I was so frustrated by the end! I think the problem is that laminated screens have a smaller diameter so when you are trying to fit original safety glass there is a ton of pain. Are you doing laminated or safety glass?

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Fitting laminated Tim. We measured up the glass incl thickness at it was all good. Shape and curvatures all good too. I've got it with all the trim screws fitted including the top centre one but the rubber doesn't sit right at the lower rear corners just above the cowl. It's displaced away from the window on both sides because for the lump at the joins.
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Craig Allardyce »

We've ordered another screen to compare with as well as another seal from a different manufacturer. I'll let you know next week how we go.
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Harv
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Re: Seagull Grey EK 2106

Post by Harv »

Timely.

Fitted two screen seals last weekend, neither in the cars yet.

The Better Rubber one fitted the screen beautifully. Just tight enough to hold itself to the screen, and hold the stainless moulds in place. Curves all match the screen curves.

The Rares rubber was a very sloppy fit on the screen... feels to big. Wont stay stuck to the screen, and won't hold the stainless by itself. Two sharp corners are moulded in to the rubber, the two less-sharp corners are not.

Thinking about getting another Better Rubber one.

Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
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